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Watch Plants Light Up When They Get Attacked

nytimes.com

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Re: Watch Plants Light Up When They Get Attacked

#31

Post by cwmoore »

trendoid wrote: post #29
cwmoore wrote: post #11

It seems to me that AI is more plant than animal, and the specific biological response mechanisms that plants use have explanatory power toward understanding and communicating about AI in a more productive way than the popular conception of GAI as sentient.

Really? Considering AI has (or will soon have) the best "brain" when it comes to adapting its default heuristics based on new information, plants don't seem to fit the right explanatory model. I would like to know in what way you think they are a better model than animals.

Similarly to the fallacies of anthropomorphism, the amygdala-hijacking that often occurs when ascribing sentience undermines the effectiveness of the animal model for AI. The central-nervous system ('best "brain"') analogy fallaciously assumes advanced executive function in a natural (ie. not rule-based) environment that confuses the role of currently tenable AI applications.

Robotics and agent-based systems may provide some counterarguments. My original comment was more about explanatory reasoning for machine learning systems than about development paradigms or goals.

Re: Watch Plants Light Up When They Get Attacked

#32

Post by cwmoore »

WaltPurvis wrote: post #30
cwmoore wrote: post #11

It seems to me that AI is more plant than animal, and the specific biological response mechanisms that plants use have explanatory power toward understanding and communicating about AI in a more productive way than the popular conception of GAI as sentient.

Interesting... Care to elaborate?

I am not prepared to properly address this at the moment, but at root it has to do with the great complexity of plant's adaptation without the advantages of locomotion. Certainly interested in your thoughts and others'.

Re: Watch Plants Light Up When They Get Attacked

#33

Post by groestl »

cwmoore wrote: post #11

It seems to me that AI is more plant than animal, and the specific biological response mechanisms that plants use have explanatory power toward understanding and communicating about AI in a more productive way than the popular conception of GAI as sentient.

As our testing procedures improve, we find out more and more about the cognitive abilities of animals, and have since found self-awareness in chimpanzees, elephants, dolphins, magpies, and recently, through sniff tests, dogs. I find it not far fetched that at some point, we start to recognize (some) plants as sentinent beings, maybe on a different timescale than us. Would be interesting to know why you think they are so different from animals that they are better models for AI?

Re: Watch Plants Light Up When They Get Attacked

#34

Post by cwmoore »

groestl wrote: post #33
cwmoore wrote: post #11

It seems to me that AI is more plant than animal, and the specific biological response mechanisms that plants use have explanatory power toward understanding and communicating about AI in a more productive way than the popular conception of GAI as sentient.

As our testing procedures improve, we find out more and more about the cognitive abilities of animals, and have since found self-awareness in chimpanzees, elephants, dolphins, magpies, and recently, through sniff tests, dogs. I find it not far fetched that at some point, we start to recognize (some) plants as sentinent beings, maybe on a different timescale than us. Would be interesting to know why you think they are…

Primarily because their mechanisms of action are easier to study in vivo. Sentience is a red herring.

I addressed this in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18000854

Re: Watch Plants Light Up When They Get Attacked

#35

Post by thraxil »

spraak wrote: post #2

Some people love to use this information as a fallacious argument of futility against veganism, i.e. that suffering cannot be avoided because "plants suffer too!". But this misses the point. Plants can respond to stimuli, but it doesn't mean that they feel pain, suffer and have a consciousness and emotions like animals do. > Plants have no eyes, no ears, no mouth and no hands. They do not have a brain or a nervous sy…

It's also a moot argument because animals that are raised for meat... eat plants. Lots of plants. Meat is incredibly inefficient in that sense. Most farmland in the US is for animal feed.

So if someone really is worried that plants feel pain and wants to reduce the amount of plants being killed, the most effective thing they could do would be to stop eating meat.

Re: Watch Plants Light Up When They Get Attacked

#36

Post by lizknope »

spraak wrote: post #2

Some people love to use this information as a fallacious argument of futility against veganism, i.e. that suffering cannot be avoided because "plants suffer too!". But this misses the point. Plants can respond to stimuli, but it doesn't mean that they feel pain, suffer and have a consciousness and emotions like animals do. > Plants have no eyes, no ears, no mouth and no hands. They do not have a brain or a nervous sy…

In Jainism some of the more strict followers do not eat root vegetables (like potatoes) because it is considered violence against plants. If you eat an apple you are not killing the plant and actually helping it to spread its seeds. If you dig up root vegetables you most likely end up killing the plant.

Mushrooms and other fungi are considered violence against plants as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_vegetarianism

Re: Watch Plants Light Up When They Get Attacked

#37

Post by germtone »

jllaneras wrote: post #28
mirko22 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and it’s awful that so much of human activity results in life’s death and extinction What you mean is nature not just humans. Life death cycle is natural thing. World is full of beauty, but it is also full of suffering and pain, large portion of it not having to do anything with humans. Animals can starve in nature, get mutilated etc. Nature is both sides of the coin, not just the pretty one. As for what you eat, i…

It's so easy to convince ourselves that eating meat is completely fine. Maybe it wouldn't be that easy if every time you wanted to eat meat you had to go yourself to the slaughterhouse and see the horrors caused by those you pay to. Second, is proven that growing vegetables is more sustainable that growing meat.

Typical Appeal to emotion nonsense

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

Re: Watch Plants Light Up When They Get Attacked

#38

Post by jllaneras »

germtone wrote: post #37
jllaneras wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so easy to convince ourselves that eating meat is completely fine. Maybe it wouldn't be that easy if every time you wanted to eat meat you had to go yourself to the slaughterhouse and see the horrors caused by those you pay to. Second, is proven that growing vegetables is more sustainable that growing meat.

Typical Appeal to emotion nonsense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

"Appeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones is a logical fallacy characterized by the manipulation of the recipient's emotions in order to win an argument, especially in the absence of factual evidence."

That you don't want to see it doesn't mean there is not factual evidence. Do you want evidence? Start caring about looking for it. You can start here [1].

[1] H.O.P.E. documentary: https://youtu.be/pDg7tlEJD64

Re: Watch Plants Light Up When They Get Attacked

#39

Post by germtone »

jllaneras wrote: post #38
germtone wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typical Appeal to emotion nonsense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

"Appeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones is a logical fallacy characterized by the manipulation of the recipient's emotions in order to win an argument, especially in the absence of factual evidence." That you don't want to see it doesn't mean there is not factual evidence. Do you want evidence? Start caring about looking for it. You can start here [1]. [1] H.O.P.E. documentary: https://youtu.be/pDg7tlEJD64

And you repeat the same logical fallacy by linking that silly documentary HOPE

and no, i have zero problem to pay a visit to a slaughterhouse each time i want to eat a juicy steak.

Re: Watch Plants Light Up When They Get Attacked

#40

Post by bromuro »

spraak wrote: post #2

Some people love to use this information as a fallacious argument of futility against veganism, i.e. that suffering cannot be avoided because "plants suffer too!". But this misses the point. Plants can respond to stimuli, but it doesn't mean that they feel pain, suffer and have a consciousness and emotions like animals do. > Plants have no eyes, no ears, no mouth and no hands. They do not have a brain or a nervous sy…

I’ve grow plants the whole life and I’m pretty sure they feel pain. I know that, you start observing them and you understand with time their emotions. Pain is the easiest to spot. We don’t need to wait the scientists answer about that.
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