E Ink Waveforms are a closely guarded secret • Hacker News Board

Re: E Ink Waveforms are a closely guarded secret

#81

Post by yomly » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 2:29 PM UTC

mrob wrote: post #60

bonzini wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Staring directly at a light source strains the eyes more than watching reflected light.

By what mechanism of action? It can't possibly be true in general: e.g. staring at the reflection of the sun in a mirror strains the eyes more than staring at a candle.

If I had to guess it is probably a few things.

Firstly staring directly at a light source means that you are seeing most the rays directly. The only attenuation you will receive will be scattering from the medium - presumably air which will be low.

Seeing it from a second surface adds more effects - the surface may have absorb some of the light. Any real surface is also not going to have perfect reflectivity (everything from scattering, internal diffraction and destructive interference could occur). In short there will be loads of secondary/tertiary effects causing attenuation. Someone also mentioned polarisation, I also wonder about interaction between reflective surfaces which could cause additional attenuation via interference but the physics of waves has never been a strong point.

The other major factor is the physiology of the eye - we evolved from a world that didn't have abundant light sources and it's hard to know the effect of focusing on a source of light that differs from the ambient profile.

Re: E Ink Waveforms are a closely guarded secret

#82

Post by antt » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 2:38 PM UTC

wingspar wrote: post #57

amelius wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it would be quite stupid to guard the secret and not patent it. So the title of the article doesn't make much sense.

That’s done all the time. Called a trade secret. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_secret

A trade secret that can be reverse engineered by a tinkerer with an oscilloscope in an afternoon.

This is more or less the type of situation patents were invented for: a simple invention anyone can copy once it's invented, but difficult (I assume) to invent in the first place.

Re: E Ink Waveforms are a closely guarded secret

#83

Post by chaoxu » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 2:41 PM UTC

enriquto wrote: post #77

chaoxu wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Currently, I use it for writing code and reading papers. However, I still want the monitor to be a good enough drop-in monitor for things I need to occasionally do. For example, I need to switch to a browser window to check what was that error I'm getting. 2. Visual snow syndrome: Many had their first experience of visual snow after staring into the screen for too long. People who believe in that is the cause of v…

> I use it for writing code and reading papers. Does it look good with white text on black background ?

It does not look good, and black causes ghosting.

Re: E Ink Waveforms are a closely guarded secret

#84

Post by 1ris » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 3:17 PM UTC

amelius wrote: post #54

sofon wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The waveforms will all likely be disclosed in their patents too: https://patents.google.com/?assignee=E+Ink+Corp Certainly a number of drive waveforms and the basic concepts are presented. There are likely implementation subtleties or specific configurations that are not explicitly disclosed. You can probably figure out a lot about both the implementation, and motivation by digging through the patents.

Yes, it would be quite stupid to guard the secret and not patent it. So the title of the article doesn't make much sense.

Secrecy and patents are mutually exclusive. The deal you get with the patent is you disclose you invention so secrecy doesn't hinder progress too much and in exchange you get exclusivity.

Re: E Ink Waveforms are a closely guarded secret

#85

Post by dorfsmay » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 3:33 PM UTC

zamadatix wrote: post #74

sophistication wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you regret buying it?

For 1,000 dollars you can get a hell of a monitor setup instead.

That wouldn't work outside in bright light, and would send bad blue light though.

Been waiting for an e-ink laptop specifically for working with it outside in the sunlight, and in the evening, since blue light is supposed to be really bad for humans at night.

Re: E Ink Waveforms are a closely guarded secret

#86

Post by Vekz » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 3:34 PM UTC

chaoxu wrote: post #33

Vekz wrote: post #27

Here is a teardown of a 13.3 high perf E-ink monitor I did a few months ago: https://kevzettler.com/2018/02/11/dasung-paperlike-pro-teard... The post identifies some on market E-ink display components and discusses the design of a proprietary display driver.

Did you eventually switch the panel to ES133UT2? Dasung released a new version called paperlike HD (also called paperlike 3). In that version, it does not look like having a glass panel.

I have acquired an ES133UT2 (and data-sheet with what appears to be waveforms) but have not replaced it because I damaged the cover of the Dasung during disassembly which means the display module would not be held securely to the screen.

Re: E Ink Waveforms are a closely guarded secret

#87

Post by cptskippy » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 3:36 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #46

Lewton wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main advantage is the low power consumption No? The main advantage is that it's easier on the eyes

People keep saying eInk is better than reflective black and white LCD, such as that found on calculators. I’m unconvinced, but (obviously) to test this I would have to actually get a monitor sized black and white reflective display, and I can’t find any of those — largest I have found so far is 320x240 for about £200

I haven't seen a reflective black and white LCD matrix that didn't suck. Think TI-82 calculators.

That being said the segmented LCDs like those found in 4 function calculators and wrist watches usually look fantastic.

Re: E Ink Waveforms are a closely guarded secret

#88

Post by toast0 » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 3:39 PM UTC

billfruit wrote: post #67

extrapickles wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A patent gives you a monopoly which makes things easy. You occasionally search the market for products that contain your tech (in this case eink), then look in your records to see if they bought/licensed from you.

But is it that infringement can be proven only by a court? So can US customs do any thing in such cases, even if we assume they have the competency to judge if a particular import violates IP.

They file a case, and ask for a preliminary injunction. And once that's granted (which is likely), they take that order to customs, and customs will start looking for those devices in shipments from your supplier or to you.

Re: E Ink Waveforms are a closely guarded secret

#89

Post by ben_w » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 3:43 PM UTC

cptskippy wrote: post #87

ben_w wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People keep saying eInk is better than reflective black and white LCD, such as that found on calculators. I’m unconvinced, but (obviously) to test this I would have to actually get a monitor sized black and white reflective display, and I can’t find any of those — largest I have found so far is 320x240 for about £200

I haven't seen a reflective black and white LCD matrix that didn't suck. Think TI-82 calculators. That being said the segmented LCDs like those found in 4 function calculators and wrist watches usually look fantastic.

I had a TI-83. Yes, the resolution was terrible by modern standards. The contrast was fine until the batteries started to die.

If I didn’t already have way too much on my personal to-do list, I’d be interested in converting an LCD with a backlight into a reflective one. I assume it’s not possible with all models, but also that it is possible with some.

Re: E Ink Waveforms are a closely guarded secret

#90

Post by tlb » Sat, Sep 15, 2018, 3:57 PM UTC

userbinator wrote: post #3

Is it really "closely guarded", or "worst guarded"? Anyone with a logic analyser and a few hours can probably figure it out easily enough... and some have even gone beyond what the official controllers can do: https://hackaday.io/project/11537-nekocal-an-e-ink-calendar/... (previously discussed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16140284 ) More research from others: http://essentialscrap.com/eink/ https://news.y…

You can measure samples of the waveform, but the tricky part is how the waveform changes with temperature and aging of the e-ink panel to produce minimal ghosting under all conditions.