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Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

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Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#131
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The invasion of Crimea is a much bigger deal that the Skripal poisoning. Russia clearly isn't afraid of "provoking" Western countries.

The invasion is a much bigger deal on a global scale, but not against a country firmly established as part of the West, while the Skripal poisoning is chemical weapon attack on the territory of a NATO member; as such, it is a far greater provocation of Western countries.

The invasion of Crimea triggered a far greater response from the West than the Skripal poisoning. Russia has been poisoning people on British soil for a while now; it's nothing new.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#132
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it a bigger deal? It could have been a bigger deal if Ukraine were a member of NATO, and the alliance had an obligation to respond. But as the things stand, why is it a big deal — for the US, the UK, Germany, France, etc.? (Skripals poisoning, in contrast, would imply a special operation on the soil of a sovereign Western country, using the tabooed chemical weapons. A concrete, old-school, physical action, as…

>Skripals poisoning, in contrast, would imply a special operation on the soil of a sovereign Western country, using the tabooed chemical weapons. That's nothing Russia hadn't already done years before.

And proudly signaled to the rest of the world that it was them that did it?

What cases are you thinking about?

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#133
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been starting to read TASS news in parallel to Reuters' feed. From only reading news, I don't know which side to trust anymore. Putin's gov denies almost all accusations (cyberattacks, chimical attacks, nerve agents, etc) from Western countries, and instead accuses the West govs of creating a "russo-phobia" amongst people opinion. Example of news you can read on TASS, but not relayed by Reuters : http://tass.c…

Reuters isn't a state-owned propaganda outlet; TASS has been since at least the early days of the Bolshevik regime (and maybe earlier; it was state-owned telegraph agency under the Tsarist regime, but I don't have any information of whether it acted as a state propaganda arm then; it's journalist came from a separate firm.)

That doesn't mean CIA/NSA doesn't influence it. You can clearly see the same narrative across all mainstream media. And commentators with different opinions being shutdown.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#134
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Skripals poisoning, in contrast, would imply a special operation on the soil of a sovereign Western country, using the tabooed chemical weapons. That's nothing Russia hadn't already done years before.

And proudly signaled to the rest of the world that it was them that did it? What cases are you thinking about?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvine...

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reuters isn't a state-owned propaganda outlet; TASS has been since at least the early days of the Bolshevik regime (and maybe earlier; it was state-owned telegraph agency under the Tsarist regime, but I don't have any information of whether it acted as a state propaganda arm then; it's journalist came from a separate firm.)

That doesn't mean CIA/NSA doesn't influence it. You can clearly see the same narrative across all mainstream media. And commentators with different opinions being shutdown.

> That doesn't mean CIA/NSA doesn't influence it. You can clearly see the same narrative across all mainstream media.

A simple explanation for that is that facts exist and impact the coverage presented by media outlets that make some effort to do what their overt role is.

I mean, alternatively, you could suspect,as you imply, that all non-fringe media that aren't state run propaganda arms of US rivals are, in fact, US state propaganda outlets pushing CIA/NSA scripted narratives.

Well, except when Paul Manafort isn't planting propaganda for Russian client regimes in them, at any rate.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#136
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And proudly signaled to the rest of the world that it was them that did it? What cases are you thinking about?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvine...

Yes, the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko.

Even the Wikipedia article says that the correct diagnosis — the poisoning by polonium-210 — was made to a large extent due to a happy coincidence: there happened to be a scientist in the facility where Litvinenko was treated who happened to have worked with polonium. Were it not for that coincidence, it is very possible the correct diagnosis would not have been reached, and the very investigation that followed would not gone very far.

So I am not sure how Litvinenko poisoning is an illustration of an assassination attempt advertised as such to the rest of the world. On the contrary, it looks like a murder attempt that was intended to have never been solved.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#137
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Point me to the OPCW report that says evidence of chemical weapons use in Syria is weak. FUD is good, because it takes away/weakens popular support from any kind of western intervention, which is good for Putin's interests in the region. Less competition. Also you're rewriting history. I was actually watching the developments quite closely as it was happening and there were numerous reports of Russians de…

I said theories. As in "Russia stands to gain from Skripal poisoning, only they had the method, it was a state operation, approved by Putin, during election campaign and FIFA2018" And "Assad gassing his people while wining the war". But you also have reports from UN/OPCW that the rebeles were the ones to chemical weapons, or that there were no chemical weapons used in Douma. I don't see how FUD of Russia damages west…

All you said was that chemical use theories are weak. Yet they are not weak. Chemical weapons are used in Syria almost since the beginning of the uprising. For example, OPCW determined Sarin was used several times in 2017. So chemical weapons are used in Syria. There are almost no reports of other parties than ISIS and Assad using chemical weapons. Quantity matters. It's like 1:100. I can think of one incident near Aleppo, that's always used in these conversations.

It's actually one of the ways Russian propaganda works. There's no proportionality involved. It's just Assad does this. Oh no, other people do it too, so... presumably it's ok? or it's messy, so presumably we should all give Putin free hand to do what he likes?

Yes, corrupt rebels are no better in principle than Assad, but amount of damage they did and can do is very limited, compared to actual damage done by the regime to people who protested against it. And it's not just rebel groups vs Assad, there's also much larger civil society, that just dislikes all corrupt leaders and wants to have a peaceful life for once. And these people have much better chance organizing against local warlords, if Assad would not constantly attack them.

> Which was strange since investigators were on their way. Also taking action before the investigation does not sound very credible.

Perhaps, but it turned out to be right, according to preliminary report.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#138
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did the spys manage to avoid poisening themselve with the nerve agent in the process? Did they walk around in a protective suite? That might have raised some suspicions...

Novicek was likely prepared on site, the two constituent chemicals are inert till until mixed.

When North Koreans agents killed with nerve agent they had two persons each spraying a single component separately. That makes much more sense than having a single bottle where anyone touching the bottle would likely get killed.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#139
post #121
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Point me to the OPCW report that says evidence of chemical weapons use in Syria is weak. FUD is good, because it takes away/weakens popular support from any kind of western intervention, which is good for Putin's interests in the region. Less competition. Also you're rewriting history. I was actually watching the developments quite closely as it was happening and there were numerous reports of Russians de…

I have been starting to read TASS news in parallel to Reuters' feed. From only reading news, I don't know which side to trust anymore. Putin's gov denies almost all accusations (cyberattacks, chimical attacks, nerve agents, etc) from Western countries, and instead accuses the West govs of creating a "russo-phobia" amongst people opinion. Example of news you can read on TASS, but not relayed by Reuters : http://tass.c…

Yeah, the difference is striking. I can understand why he'd like to believe that outsiders hate Russians rather than him, yet people often times say Putin or Kremlin, to differentiate between ordinary Russians and the actions of their government. Even more so, if they have experience living under an authoritarian regime.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#140
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvine...

Yes, the poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko. Even the Wikipedia article says that the correct diagnosis — the poisoning by polonium-210 — was made to a large extent due to a happy coincidence: there happened to be a scientist in the facility where Litvinenko was treated who happened to have worked with polonium. Were it not for that coincidence, it is very possible the correct diagnosis would not have been reached, an…

>On the contrary, it looks like a murder attempt that was intended to have never been solved

Seriously? Using Polonium meant that it took weeks for Litvinenko to die, giving him plenty of time to make it clear exactly who was responsible, and even give interviews to the press. If they wanted to keep it quiet, they did a pretty terrible job.

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