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Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

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Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#111

Post by lucozade »

AlexeyParamonov wrote: post #106
lucozade wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why did not we do that then? Because that would have been stupid. Why kill a spy when you can exchange him for your spies and then kill him. Which is what they (almost) did. Quite sensible really in a "fuck you world" kind of way.

Makes sense in some way. But why "Novichok" did not work then, if it is so scary super-duper chemical weapon? Both of the victims are cured. Basically western mass media was talking that only Russia has a formula for Novichok form the beginning, how did they came up to know that is is Novichok without having the formula? If anyone can have that formula to compare or to detect that poison, is there any evidence that i…

> why "Novichok" did not work

It did, it just didn't kill Sergei Skripal which was clearly the intent.

> Basically western mass media was talking that only Russia has a formula for Novichok

I haven't done a exhaustive analysis of all western media but the bit of western media I read didn't say that. What they said initially was that it was a nerve agent. Then, after analysis in the UK, they said it was Novichok but couldn't confirm the source. Then after international analysis, particularly at a lab in Switzerland but also others, they did confirm the source.

No-one knowledgeable is saying that only Russia has the formula because it's not true. Novichok isn't especially new, it was developed decades ago by the Soviet Union to get around NATO NBC gear. That's pretty well documented.

The fact that Novichok was used isn't what makes the labs believe it was Russian origin. It's the specific composition that makes them sure. Even then, that wouldn't necessarily mean it was Russian administered. It's all the other evidence that points there.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#112

Post by AlexeyParamonov »

lucozade wrote: post #111
AlexeyParamonov wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes sense in some way. But why "Novichok" did not work then, if it is so scary super-duper chemical weapon? Both of the victims are cured. Basically western mass media was talking that only Russia has a formula for Novichok form the beginning, how did they came up to know that is is Novichok without having the formula? If anyone can have that formula to compare or to detect that poison, is there any evidence that i…

> why "Novichok" did not work It did, it just didn't kill Sergei Skripal which was clearly the intent. > Basically western mass media was talking that only Russia has a formula for Novichok I haven't done a exhaustive analysis of all western media but the bit of western media I read didn't say that. What they said initially was that it was a nerve agent. Then, after analysis in the UK, they said it was Novichok but c…

They had hundreds quiet of ways to kill Sergey.

What is "specific composition", how did they know that it was specific to Russia?

All this is too easy to fake and blame anyone, make that a reason to put sanctions against the country and convert it to evil in eyes of all, at least even from this forum I notice that.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#113

Post by coldtea »

yAnonymous wrote: post #109
coldtea wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He did however suggest that the UK, Dutch and Swiss agencies can't be trusted in this case, which is beyond laughable. Yeah, because agencies and especially of good old colonial powers like UK and Dutch have historically been very trustable, and not at all working to promote the interests of their states (with lies, covert action, false flag operations, and so on) > It implies that another actor would have tried to…

>and from 2000 other ways to kill someone they chose something that's the equivalent of living their business card on the murder scene... This was always about sending a message. For that, it has to be obvious who did it.

>This was always about sending a message. For that, it has to be obvious who did it.

That's the poor-man's theory of a blatant murder.

As if, if the same person was murdered with a gun, the message would be lost?

Russians would then had still send their message just fine (those in similar situation as the suspect would know it immediately), but still be able to deny doing anything and avoid all the BS hoopla going on now.

But this was a crude way to set it up so they can point fingers at Russia and have the less than average IQ public see it as "obvious".

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#114

Post by objectivetruth »

AlexeyParamonov wrote: post #73
Grue3 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>desecrate Russian Federation in the eyes of the world and nothing more Russia Today does that by itself just fine.

One may or may not like what another person is talking. If you don't like what others a speaking of that's not the reason to make them shut up. But RT is forced to close is UK and US. "Democracy" in action.

RT is forced to close by the US government? Citation, please?

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#115

Post by foldr »

huhtenberg wrote: post #105
foldr wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok then. Who else had the motivation to ostentatiously kill him using a weapon only available to state actors?

Another state actor? Though in the light of [1] it'd seem far less probable. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17987031

Indeed. Russia is the only plausible candidate.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#116

Post by foldr »

coldtea wrote: post #113
yAnonymous wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>and from 2000 other ways to kill someone they chose something that's the equivalent of living their business card on the murder scene... This was always about sending a message. For that, it has to be obvious who did it.

> This was always about sending a message. For that, it has to be obvious who did it. That's the poor-man's theory of a blatant murder. As if, if the same person was murdered with a gun, the message would be lost? Russians would then had still send their message just fine (those in similar situation as the suspect would know it immediately), but still be able to deny doing anything and avoid all the BS hoopla going o…

>As if, if the same person was murdered with a gun, the message would be lost?

Yes, because any criminal organization can easily obtain a gun, whereas novichok is much more difficult to obtain.

>but still be able to deny doing anything and avoid all the BS hoopla going on now.

They don't want to avoid all the "BS hoopla". This is a deliberate provocation.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#117

Post by trhway »

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #58
foldr wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By keeping it in a sealed container. A nerve agent that could only be handled by someone wearing a protective suit wouldn't be very practical.

But they were spraying the aerosol around when they pressed the button. Are they some kind of robots who are immune to the stuff?

check out the killing of the Kim's brother couple years ago - 2 girls just sprayed innocent chemicals on him in public at airport, and the resulting mix of these chemicals on his face is what killed him.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#118

Post by foldr »

azangru wrote: post #81
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given how these stories over the poisoning have played out it certainly looks that way. The "cover" story is comically poor, and they have plenty of people intelligent enough to do better. So short of Putin calling a press conference saying "Yup, we did it" it couldn't have been telegraphed much clearer.

> they have plenty of people intelligent enough to do better Now, that's a very charitable assumption. I am not sure we have any evidence for that :-) > Given how these stories over the poisoning have played out it certainly looks that way. But that would mean that they were provoking the Western countries to give them hell. I am the first to admit that I do not hold their intellectual powers in any high esteem, but…

>But that would mean that they were provoking the Western countries to give them hell

Gee, you think?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Ru...

Putin clearly has no problem with the idea of provoking Western countries.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#119

Post by lucozade »

AlexeyParamonov wrote: post #112
lucozade wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why "Novichok" did not work It did, it just didn't kill Sergei Skripal which was clearly the intent. > Basically western mass media was talking that only Russia has a formula for Novichok I haven't done a exhaustive analysis of all western media but the bit of western media I read didn't say that. What they said initially was that it was a nerve agent. Then, after analysis in the UK, they said it was Novichok but c…

They had hundreds quiet of ways to kill Sergey. What is "specific composition", how did they know that it was specific to Russia? All this is too easy to fake and blame anyone, make that a reason to put sanctions against the country and convert it to evil in eyes of all, at least even from this forum I notice that.

> They had hundreds quiet of ways to kill Sergey

Sure they did but that clearly wasn't the goal or, at least, not the only goal. Anyone who thinks that this was somehow an incompetent operation doesn't know what they're talking about. The GRU are just doing what Mossad has been doing for years. And they appear to be doing a pretty good job of it.

> how did they know that it was specific to Russia?

Not specific to Russia, specific to a lab in Russia. As they can't publish the actual analysis, I'm going to make an educated guess that they look at trace elements in the poison. Every lab will have a signature. I have no idea whether it was from the poison itself, the solvent or something else. What was clear though is that the UK lab couldn't trace it but the Swiss could.

> convert it to evil in eyes of all

Nah. This is small potatoes compared to the invasion of Crimea.

Re: Russian spies detained in The Hague were planning cyber break-in at Swiss lab

#120

Post by guilhas »

megous wrote: post #107
guilhas wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russians had to beg for the OPCW to go collect samples from Douma. While they were there, UK, FR, US were having fun bombing the area. How can more Russian FUD be good for Russia? Because that is UK and US do everyday. They dont need Russia help. Also OPCW does analysis in more than one lab. Both Skripal and Syria chemical use theories are very weak.

Not really. Point me to the OPCW report that says evidence of chemical weapons use in Syria is weak. FUD is good, because it takes away/weakens popular support from any kind of western intervention, which is good for Putin's interests in the region. Less competition. Also you're rewriting history. I was actually watching the developments quite closely as it was happening and there were numerous reports of Russians de…

I said theories. As in "Russia stands to gain from Skripal poisoning, only they had the method, it was a state operation, approved by Putin, during election campaign and FIFA2018" And "Assad gassing his people while wining the war". But you also have reports from UN/OPCW that the rebeles were the ones to chemical weapons, or that there were no chemical weapons used in Douma.

I don't see how FUD of Russia damages western intervention. Also the disaster of previous western interventions, and the current in Syria supporting the terrorists speaks for itself.

Russia vetoed a US UN resolution to determine responsibles without an FFM, just relying on the civil society and media reports. Other Russia delaying news were already almost 10 days in, including after US bombings. They say it was for security reasons, and there were shotings while the investigators were there. Also if there were journalists parading how could they interfere with the evidence?

They bombed in Douma area also. Which was strange since investigators were on their way. Also taking action before the investigation does not sound very credible.

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