Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless

#531

Post by tim333 » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 2:06 PM UTC

old-gregg wrote: post #326

baddox wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not in Seattle (I live and work on some of the most conspicuous blocks in San Francisco for homeless drug users), but I'm sure that both groups exist in both cities. I think what's important is for policy proposals to treat the groups differently, rather than bundling them together into a proposal to "solve homelessness." In my experience in SF these proposals usually only focuses on one set of issues, like minim…

> to treat the groups differently, rather than bundling them together into a proposal to "solve homelessness." I agree. Add the absence of a healthcare system to that too. Personal anecdote: a homeless man offered to wash my car for money. He seemed intelligent and nice, so I agreed. He told me the story of him becoming homeless. Both he and his wife worked and rented an OK place in OK part of SF. His wife got into a…

That's a bit of a shocker really.

Re: Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless

#532

Post by ben_w » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 2:25 PM UTC

flyinglizard wrote: post #512

ben_w wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there is. Societies — as we know how to make them — break down if everyone figures out how to avoid paying their way. If a hacker gets root, they’re just using the rules of the system, finding a loophole they can exploit… taxes and laws are systems that can be exploited, but even in the cases where I find them bad (and I have plenty of broad examples of things I don’t like), I think it’s worse to let people get…

It's not weakness, it's a commercial decision, both for Amazon AND for the jurisdiction. It's another tool the governing body has for drawing (or repelling) businesses. There isn't a moral rate of taxation anymore than there is an absolute moral price to pay for a night at a hotel.

I’m not arguing about the absolute rate of taxation, I’m arguing about the ability to exploit different rates. Arbitrage of rules, I guess you might call it, in an environment where those setting the rules can be pressured into what would otherwise be suboptimal decisions.

Re: Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless

#533

Post by ben_w » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 2:29 PM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #502

ben_w wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there is. Societies — as we know how to make them — break down if everyone figures out how to avoid paying their way. If a hacker gets root, they’re just using the rules of the system, finding a loophole they can exploit… taxes and laws are systems that can be exploited, but even in the cases where I find them bad (and I have plenty of broad examples of things I don’t like), I think it’s worse to let people get…

Deciding it’s best to operate in a low tax jurisdiction is not “exploiting a weakness in the system”. It’s simply acting rationally in an environment when you have multiple options for where you operate.

It’s the prisoners dilemma, except Amazon etc. are acting as the interrogator.

Government shouldn’t be in the position where their own tax base can manipulate them.

Re: Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless

#534

Post by kashyapc » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 2:49 PM UTC

mankash666 wrote: post #513

kashyapc wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? Jimnotgym is precisely asking to not screw the society and follow the law (yeah, they found some "legal" loopholes, therefore one could argue that Amazon is in the "legal green zone") pay regular taxes and treat the warehouse workers et al like decent humans.

Stop making nonsequestirs. If Amazon is breaking laws, sue them. There's no forced labor in warehouses, it's at-will. No one's stopping the unhappy from getting another job. Raise the minimum wage in territories you suspect are untenable. Then there's the whole hypocrisy of you shopping on Amazon. How much do you save by shopping on Amazon (and equivalents). Why isn't a 100% of your shopping local and sustainable? Ju…

You're missing the larger point. I'll try one last time.

Labor "at will" doesn't mean you get to abuse the conditions "at will". If you can, and do have all the wherewithal in the world to make your workers lives less inhumane, why on earth wouldn't you do it? You jolly well must do it!

On your assumptions on where I shop, yes, I admit that occasionally (maybe once in 3 months) I do shop on Amazon (for the things that I can't get locally; and these are not any 'big expenses'). But I boycott them to a large extent. And I "vote with my wallet" (and end up spending more than I "should") to support the local and stay sustainable to the most meaningful extent that I can, knowing my circumstances and dependents. I am reasonably proud of how I make my spending choices.

Re: Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless

#535

Post by dahdum » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 3:07 PM UTC

Turing_Machine wrote: post #284

fixermark wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, it used to be law. Tax rate on the top-1% of earners in the US was much, much, MUCH higher until the recent four or so decades.

It is a common misconception that high income tax rates would affect the ultra-wealthy to any significant degree. It would not, because their wealth almost never appears as ordinary income. High income tax rates (such as we indeed used to have in the United States) affect people like dentists and pediatricians, not people like Bill Gates or Warren Buffet. Note that Steve Jobs, Larry Page, Sergei Brin, Mitt Romney, an…

Capital gains tax in the US is among the top in the world, and if you live in California I believe it's #2 considering the state's 13.3% addition.

You're right that net worth taxes are non-starter virtually everywhere, that's one thing both parties will always agree on.

Reid is only worth about $10M at 78 years old, not exactly massively wealthy, it brings him just barely into the 1%.

Re: Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless

#536

Post by mankash666 » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 3:20 PM UTC

kashyapc wrote: post #534

mankash666 wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop making nonsequestirs. If Amazon is breaking laws, sue them. There's no forced labor in warehouses, it's at-will. No one's stopping the unhappy from getting another job. Raise the minimum wage in territories you suspect are untenable. Then there's the whole hypocrisy of you shopping on Amazon. How much do you save by shopping on Amazon (and equivalents). Why isn't a 100% of your shopping local and sustainable? Ju…

You're missing the larger point. I'll try one last time. Labor "at will" doesn't mean you get to abuse the conditions "at will". If you can , and do have all the wherewithal in the world to make your workers lives less inhumane, why on earth wouldn't you do it? You jolly well must do it! On your assumptions on where I shop, yes, I admit that occasionally (maybe once in 3 months) I do shop on Amazon (for the things th…

There's no end to your moral policing of Amazon's wearhouse policies. No matter what they do, you'll find a reason to demonize them.

But just to play along with your line of attack - the answer is obvious - it would affect their bottom line. Their retail is legendary for being unprofitable, there's very little wiggle room for increasing costs. What would you rather have - a large army of employed, productive wearhouse workers, whose experience at Amazon opens up further opportunities, or an army of unemployed?

Like I cited initially, the permutations have played out before, at etsy. Etsy's flat growth, and reduction in employment, while simultaneously cutting back on previously granted generous endowments is what will result if Amazon does what the social media lynch mobs of Justice seek

Re: Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless

#537

Post by gammateam » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 3:25 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #445

gammateam wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do take you seriously You came out of the woodworks because Jeff Bezos is doing something with money and the PR engine is masquerading this as a panacea to chronic homelessness. You want the world to know that "something" isn't enough and isn't holistic enough. And I'm right here in the middle saying "huh preschools thats kind of interesting" I know plenty of people that do things for schools, Jeff Bezos doing thin…

You came out of the woodworks because... a wild Doreen Michele would have never appeared. But because it was billed as a solution to homelessness and impoverished areas, here comes college educated Doreen Michele to let everyone know its totally wrong and misguided! That's incredibly dismissive. For one thing, I'm simply here a lot. I didn't "come out of the woodwork" like some lurker who normally keeps my mouth shut…

It is hard for me to differentiate users, but I don't consider your activity on HN a crutch or needing rational

Glad to hear more about your background in this area though

Jeff Bezos says his action was guided by something akin to a public comment period. Not sure how anyone would have known that in advance but maybe thats something you can contribute to in the future, or push for more billionaires and well funded organizations to take suggestions from the public

Re: Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless

#538

Post by xamuel » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 3:35 PM UTC

asdkhadsj wrote: post #529

xamuel wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No-one eats money. Money is just how we notate that we owe each other stuff. The surgeon can operate on the patient but decides not to, because the patient is a stranger. Bezos says "Please help that patient". The surgeon says "I know you! You convinced a bunch of vendors to send physical products to me and my loved ones. Therefore, I'll help the patient if you insist." The above dialog is unfamiliar because it gets…

> Imagine I know how to fish. I go and teach one million people how to fish. I charge them $1 each, which they gladly pay because they consider the skill worth more than $1. Now I have $1M. I hoard it. Am I greedy? By no means! It's a paradox: you think I'm greedy because I'm hoarding that $1M, but actually I have the $1M because I provided so much value! Okay so I think I'm getting where you're going with this.. tho…

You keep returning to the fundamental fallacy of thinking of money as a fixed natural resource with its own intrinsic value.

That 5c you give doesn't accomplish anything by itself. If the recipient uses it to buy a slice of bread, the merchant could have just given the slice to him for free. Now you'll say, "The merchant needs the 5c more than I do", but again, no: no-one eats nickels. If the merchant 'needs' the 5c to buy his baby son some milk, again, the dairy could give him the milk for free.

Money is a tool for convincing people to do things. Bezos could use his fortune to convince people to do nice actions to each other, but if he doesn't, those people could still do those nice actions to each other anyway. The surgeon does not literally need the money as if he was going to use the dollar bills as a suture (lol). Paradoxically, by saying Bezos has an obligation to donate money, you're essentially saying Bezos has an obligation to dictate how people should act. Somehow I doubt that was your intention!

Re: Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless

#539

Post by barrow-rider » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 4:17 PM UTC

Veelox wrote: post #426

softawre wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. See also, on reddit: /r/almosthomeless /r/homeless even subs like /r/povertyfinance contain some people that live in their car at times.

I find it really interesting the difference in views on money between /r/povertyfinance, /r/personalfinance and /r/financialindependence.

What is the difference? I'm not going to read multiple posts in multiple subreddits that aren't esp. related to me while at work; elaborate on your point.

Re: Amazon's Bezos Launches $2B Fund to Help the Homeless

#540

Post by ageitgey » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 4:37 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #402

Turing_Machine wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He gave figures for the city of San Francisco and the entire country of England .

He compared SF to London. Then threw in some national numbers. SF to London is not a good comparison because SF is a small part of the greater city.

No matter how you slice the numbers (SF, Oakland, San Jose, all of them combined, etc), the homelessness numbers for the bay area are terrible and way beyond London.