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The language the French forbade

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Re: The language the French forbade

#41

Post by pjmlp »

taejo wrote: post #40
pjmlp wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give an example similar to fao_, very few foreigners are aware that Portugal actually has two official languages. Mirandese used to be a very local language spoken in the north, and it was a dying language. The last couple of years, a group of people started pushing to rescue it, and nowadays the situation has improve a lot with published books, dictionaries, even Asterix gets published in Mirandese and it gets ta…

> even Asterix gets published in Mirandese Asterix seems to be a favourite for minority languages. There are seventy Asterix albums published in German regional dialects: https://www.asterix.com/de/die-buecher/die-asterix-mundart-r...

Oh, now I need to get Plattdeutsch and Kölsh editions. :)

Re: The language the French forbade

#43

Post by VK538FY »

pjmlp wrote: post #37
VK538FY wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you referring to the bulldozer effect of English against other major languages? If so, I'd say that English and Occitan (for example) are not in the same league, therefore not competitors. For example, no school pupil will choose to do part of his schooling in Occitan unless he lives in that region and even then it doesn't really replace a 'real' foreign language -- you need to learn one of those anyway. (Right?)…

A couple of European countries offer the option to learn two foreign languages during school. So usually the most sought combinations are English and French, German or Spanish, which already covers our internal travel needs quite well. Then a couple of Erasmus and the language knowledge can be ramped up to a few other European languages.

Not just a couple, but many European countries offer two or more foreign languages. (The level of success varies wildly of course.)

The configuration is even more complicated in French schools where there is the optional immersion in the regional language. That immersion generally begins at the earliest ages. But my point was that this regional language in no way limits the choice of the first foreign language later on. Therefore: I don't believe that Occitan is in any way menaced by English, but English may be chosen over other European languages later in one's scolarity.

As an aside, I don't quite agree with your statement that the foreign languages offered cover your travel needs. Well, that may be true, but I don't think that the most important element is mobility for travel, but rather mobility for employment and trade, especially in border regions. And I can name a LOT of countries where proficiency in the neighbour's language is severely lacking. Neighbours that are sometimes just a kilometre away. I've seen it myself.

Re: The language the French forbade

#44

Post by VK538FY »

zerealshadowban wrote: post #31
VK538FY wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you referring to the bulldozer effect of English against other major languages? If so, I'd say that English and Occitan (for example) are not in the same league, therefore not competitors. For example, no school pupil will choose to do part of his schooling in Occitan unless he lives in that region and even then it doesn't really replace a 'real' foreign language -- you need to learn one of those anyway. (Right?)…

I was given a choice between Ancient Greek and (modern) English...

If you're Greek, that _might_ be a dilemma, I suppose. :-)

Re: The language the French forbade

#45

Post by pjmlp »

VK538FY wrote: post #43
pjmlp wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of European countries offer the option to learn two foreign languages during school. So usually the most sought combinations are English and French, German or Spanish, which already covers our internal travel needs quite well. Then a couple of Erasmus and the language knowledge can be ramped up to a few other European languages.

Not just a couple, but many European countries offer two or more foreign languages. (The level of success varies wildly of course.) The configuration is even more complicated in French schools where there is the optional immersion in the regional language. That immersion generally begins at the earliest ages. But my point was that this regional language in no way limits the choice of the first foreign language later…

Well it depends how open people are to learn other languages.

More than once I had to speak English in the Flemish area in Belgium, because the person I was speaking to never bothered to keep their French up to date.

Likewise I happen to speak better French and German than some Swiss German and Romande friends of mine. It is ironic to watch them speak in English among themselves, which isn't an official national language.

So mindset matters as well.

Re: The language the French forbade

#46

Post by VK538FY »

pjmlp wrote: post #45
VK538FY wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just a couple, but many European countries offer two or more foreign languages. (The level of success varies wildly of course.) The configuration is even more complicated in French schools where there is the optional immersion in the regional language. That immersion generally begins at the earliest ages. But my point was that this regional language in no way limits the choice of the first foreign language later…

Well it depends how open people are to learn other languages. More than once I had to speak English in the Flemish area in Belgium, because the person I was speaking to never bothered to keep their French up to date. Likewise I happen to speak better French and German than some Swiss German and Romande friends of mine. It is ironic to watch them speak in English among themselves, which isn't an official national lang…

We agree: it depends on the willingness of people to learn. I'm just saying to myself that it's pretty stupid not to want to learn the language of one's immediate neighbours, especially when it can eliminate spells of unemployment or double or triple one's salary.

I had heard of the Belgian example and am all too aware of Romands and Allemanics speaking English with each other because most don't care to learn another official language enough to do business in it. A couple of other examples that I've seen...

- Basel, CH: the German speaking Baslers are litterally glued to a now essentially francophone French city. Every one that I've met speaks better English than French. Of course it's clear that they have little economic motivation to do so.

- Wrocław, PL: many of the graduates of that city's fine universities may end up working in Germany (which is about 100 km away) but almost none of them come out of high school or university speaking fluent German. The system even discourages it, maybe because Wrocław (Breslau) was previously in Germany.

Re: The language the French forbade

#47

Post by zerealshadowban »

VK538FY wrote: post #44
zerealshadowban wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was given a choice between Ancient Greek and (modern) English...

If you're Greek, that _might_ be a dilemma, I suppose. :-)

I'm not Greek... It was tempting, having studied Latin for a few years prior. I made the final decision based on a strong desire to understand the lyrics of Pink Floyd albums.

Re: The language the French forbade

#48

Post by dnnrly »

taejo wrote: post #40
pjmlp wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give an example similar to fao_, very few foreigners are aware that Portugal actually has two official languages. Mirandese used to be a very local language spoken in the north, and it was a dying language. The last couple of years, a group of people started pushing to rescue it, and nowadays the situation has improve a lot with published books, dictionaries, even Asterix gets published in Mirandese and it gets ta…

> even Asterix gets published in Mirandese Asterix seems to be a favourite for minority languages. There are seventy Asterix albums published in German regional dialects: https://www.asterix.com/de/die-buecher/die-asterix-mundart-r...

My dad learned French from Asterix after he married my (French) mum while spending summer's out there with her family. Coincidentally in Provençe.

I wonder if the mix of pictures along with uncomplicated but correct dialogue makes Asterix popular for promoting languages.

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