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China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

bloomberg.com

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Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#71

Post by partiallypro »

zoom6628 wrote: post #67

Lets not forget that China has over 3x the popn of USA so to surpass scientific output is to be expected at some stage. They havent got there yet because there is a history, culture and political environment to overcome and that will take a few more decades. In the fields that i pay attention to (Im not a scientist, just a curious part-time pythonista) such as materials science, practical uses of AI and vision, it se…

There's also the fact that some studies have show papers pushed from China are outright stolen research or fictional. I don't mean to downplay the actual science that many in China do...but there is a lot that is actually nonsense and contributes nothing.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#73

Post by noobermin »

hatmatrix wrote: post #52
noobermin wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article points not just to number of publications but citations too, which hint that they aren't just paper mill papers. In my field, China is actually committing to investing in my kind of research in terms of facilities and such while the US is cutting of course.

There is certainly good research coming out of China, but there are also journals set up to primarily publish articles citing their own papers, or papers in peer journals to boost citations...

I don't know if you know this but that it's a China only thing, most groups cough self cite because everyone does.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#74

Post by stochastic_monk »

jeffmcmahan wrote: post #41
stochastic_monk wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once the US stops prioritizing stuffing the coffers of rich donors and actually puts American interests first, things will dramatically improve.

Right, so never ever. :/

I don’t feel so hopeless. There are a lot of initiatives to reduce the influence of money in politics coming down the pipeline.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#75

Post by jeffmcmahan »

stochastic_monk wrote: post #74
jeffmcmahan wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, so never ever. :/

I don’t feel so hopeless. There are a lot of initiatives to reduce the influence of money in politics coming down the pipeline.

I hope you're right. Do you have specific policy moves in mind?

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#76

Post by lovich »

bitxbit wrote: post #56
throwaway713 wrote: post #36

The quality debate about scientific merit aside, if the U.S. wants to remain "the best", then we need to incentivize the best scientists and researchers in other countries to come here and become U.S. citizens. A lot of famous physicists, mathematicians, and logicians have done this over the past 100 years. Unfortunately, the attractiveness of becoming a U.S. citizen is waning because (1) current U.S. policies on sci…

I think it comes down to US and UK in terms of general science research. I would include Japan but language is an issue (for many). Despite what the average math and science metrics in the US imply, I actually think it’s a direct result of more practical approach to education in the US. There are unbelievable opportunities for young students who want to excel in sciences. I was around graduate level research environm…

My home towns school stopped giving homework when I was in high school because the budget ran out for paper halfway through the year.

There may be unparalleled access to science research in the US, but it is unevenly distributed

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#77

Post by elguyosupremo »

sixo wrote: post #69
bitxbit wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it comes down to US and UK in terms of general science research. I would include Japan but language is an issue (for many). Despite what the average math and science metrics in the US imply, I actually think it’s a direct result of more practical approach to education in the US. There are unbelievable opportunities for young students who want to excel in sciences. I was around graduate level research environm…

My immediate reaction to this is you _probably_ had well-off parents in or adjacent to academia, and (separately) are likely to be in the demographic majority here.

Opportunities like OP described are not as rare as all that. I grew up in an agrarian town but was able to access a lot of the resources of the nearby university through programs like the Cooperative Extension Service. They are not things that fall in your lap, you need to find them and take part; but you don't need well connected or educated parents to get them.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#78

Post by dnomad »

noobermin wrote: post #14
whatshisface wrote: post #2

> They document a rapid expansion between 2000 and 2016, as the Chinese share of global publications in physical sciences, engineering and math quadrupled. I really hate to risk being the guy who says "they will never best us," until they do, but in my field and many others Chinese papers are known to be of a lower quality standard and a lot more mill-like. This may come as a surprise to many, but the simple fact is…

The article points not just to number of publications but citations too, which hint that they aren't just paper mill papers. In my field, China is actually committing to investing in my kind of research in terms of facilities and such while the US is cutting of course.

Publications and citations don't really matter. All that matters at the end of the day is patents [1]. That's the real story here, this is all about patents and IP. The entire Chinese university system is being forcefully redesigned to become a machine that systematically produces high-value patents.

The goal here is very much to beat the US at its own game [2]. The US and Western Europe have trapped the whole world in an extremely harsh intellectual property regime and China, rather than fighting this regime, intends to dominate it.

It's very sad because what's being ultimately being legitimized is just Feudalism 3.0. It's also very corrosive to China's real strength, it's entrepreneurial spirit, which, until very recently, gave fuck all about patents. Now many Asian VCs won't even talk to you unless you have some valuable IP. Many people view this rapid "IP enclosure" in China, where IP is becoming everything and often the only thing, to be a very bad thing.

[1] http://www.wipo.int/pressroom/en/articles/2018/article_0002....

[2] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/world/china-watch/business/...

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#79

Post by m_mueller »

3pt14159 wrote: post #51
Leary wrote: post #16

A better index that measures QUALITY scientific research is the Nature index. By that measure, China is #2 in the world, tho far behind the US still. https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/glo...

I'm surprised at how high up Canada / Switzerland is in the rankings. Both pretty small for that much impact.

I’m currently a postdoc at ETH Zurich. I think it’s very similar to a highly ranked US university in that the majority of researchers past master level come from all over the world and tend to be some of the smartest from each place. It’s really a matter of attracting talent. The US should be careful not to loose that leadership e.g. due to overzealous new immigration laws. Populist politics (and I count some of the leftist ‘postmodern’ agenda there as well) are immensely dangerous to a nation’s ability to lead in science and modern economy.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#80

Post by Eridrus »

throwaway713 wrote: post #36

The quality debate about scientific merit aside, if the U.S. wants to remain "the best", then we need to incentivize the best scientists and researchers in other countries to come here and become U.S. citizens. A lot of famous physicists, mathematicians, and logicians have done this over the past 100 years. Unfortunately, the attractiveness of becoming a U.S. citizen is waning because (1) current U.S. policies on sci…

I think the point that most grad programs don't have US students is revealing - for those who have alternative entry into the US economy, most people decide that a PhD program is a poor choice.

Most of the things people work on in their PhD programs are very niche, and most do not work in academia or on the same thing after they finish their PhD. And most people never really make a noticeable contribution to science with their thesis. So I'm a bit skeptical that we're losing all this valuable knowledge overseas, rather than PhD programs being about signaling their skill to employers and our byzantine immigration process. Not to say that people learn nothing valuable, but the number of people I've worked with who did a Math PhD and then never used that knowledge ever again is surprisingly high.

I think the US should be less concerned about whether it is on top wrt publications, but about whether English remains the language of scholarship, because if Chinese folks start publishing in Mandarin, that's going to be a far bigger loss to English speaking countries than if we do not originate as much research.

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