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China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

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Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#31
post #24

Cheating and fraud are endemic to Chinese culture, getting one over on a sucker is just an expected part of daily life there. I would not downplay this.

Not all Chinese people that I've worked are like this. But the most cheating, backstabbing, manipulative coworkers I've had were all Chinese. From what I understand, in Chinese culture 'any means necessary' tactics are considered smart and fair game as long as they work.

I don't think you realize how racist this statement is.

I'm also surprised you've never met manipulative people who are not Chinese, like, are you living in rural China?

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#32

Good, competition and more spending is always welcome.

It would really suck to have the global language of science change to Chinese though. And Beijing strikes me as the sort of place to suddenly require all their scientists to publish in Chinese one day, once they felt they had sufficient leverage.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#33
post #16

A better index that measures QUALITY scientific research is the Nature index. By that measure, China is #2 in the world, tho far behind the US still. https://www.natureindex.com/country-outputs/generate/All/glo...

It's interesting to weight these numbers by population. They seem to be more or less the number of papers in select venues with an author of a particular nationality. As with sports, it's easy to say that the country X gets a lot of medals because they have a large talent pool.

The US has a pop. of 325M and a score of 26k so a weighted score of 0.080 publications (per thousand people). Germany scores 0.094, the UK 0.10, Australia 0.097.

These "academic" countries hover around 1 publication per ten thousand people. A lot of small countries punch slightly above their weight, mostly those with a long history of academia.

Adjusted for population (1.37B), China would score 0.0095 - an order of magnitude less. That's not necessarily an indication of lack of quality, but it does suggest that they're not at capacity yet.

Using national population is naive. There are probably a lot of interesting metrics you could dig out of this to get an idea of the resaerch efficiency of a country. For example China has more researchers than the US[1,2] (1.69M vs 1.38M), but not in proportion to its increased population size. The US has, proportionally, four times as many researchers than China, but doesn't spend four times as much on R&D (2.7% US, 2.1% China).

Israel is a good disproportionate example, spending 4% of GDP on research to get a pop-weighted publication score of 0.12. They also have a lot of researchers - second only to Scandinvaia at around 7k per million inhabitants. So their publication success is probabily attributable to having an above-average number of scientists coupled with a huge research budget.

[1] http://uis.unesco.org/en/news/rd-data-release [2] http://data.uis.unesco.org/

EDIT: Most of this data is 2016-2017, might be some muddling of years. It's also 3AM so maths maybe squiffy.

If you use the number of researchers instead of population, the US publishes 14.2 "good" papers per thousand researchers, China publishes around 5.3. Maybe that's a better basis for quantity vs quality.

You could phrase this as "Given a researcher in a particular country, what are the odds of them publishing a top tier paper in a year?" and following on, "Do we expect that, given how much this country spends on research (per scientist)?"

Using GDP from Google (11.2t and 18.57t) and figures from [2], the US spends about $365k on R&D per scientist. China spends $140k per scientist. That fits rather well - the US spends 2.6x more and gets 2.7x more top publications per scientist.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#36
The quality debate about scientific merit aside, if the U.S. wants to remain "the best", then we need to incentivize the best scientists and researchers in other countries to come here and become U.S. citizens. A lot of famous physicists, mathematicians, and logicians have done this over the past 100 years.

Unfortunately, the attractiveness of becoming a U.S. citizen is waning because (1) current U.S. policies on science are extremely unfavorable to foreign researchers and (2) other countries are making it much more desirable to remain a citizen there than to become a U.S. citizen (this is a net win for humanity though)

I think (1) is in part due to a culture in the U.S. that really just doesn't care about science anymore. When I was in grad school a few years ago, most of my peers were from other countries despite the fact that the majority of undergrads at the same school were born in state. So in effect, the grad students would get advanced degrees in the hard sciences and take that knowledge back home with them, whereas the U.S. students would get a B.S. in literature, advertising, or business (generalizing of course).

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#37
post #24

Cheating and fraud are endemic to Chinese culture, getting one over on a sucker is just an expected part of daily life there. I would not downplay this.

Not all Chinese people that I've worked are like this. But the most cheating, backstabbing, manipulative coworkers I've had were all Chinese. From what I understand, in Chinese culture 'any means necessary' tactics are considered smart and fair game as long as they work.

As a Chinese I don't get offended by this, depending on the people they he interacted with this may largely be true.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#38
Please everyone don't underestimate China. Sure we can find 100 criticisms, but you can't deny their massive efforts in education, research, technology and manufacturing.

Steady progress builds results over time. I really encourage doubters to go visit China and see for yourself.

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#39
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all Chinese people that I've worked are like this. But the most cheating, backstabbing, manipulative coworkers I've had were all Chinese. From what I understand, in Chinese culture 'any means necessary' tactics are considered smart and fair game as long as they work.

As a Chinese I don't get offended by this, depending on the people they he interacted with this may largely be true.

Personally the only times when I got back-stabbed at work were by Canadians, but I don't go around making conclusion about Canadian culture being backstabby.

If 1 in 10 Chinese you met are manipulators, that means 9 out of 10 are NOT honest/manipulative, how can you then go conclude "in Chinese culture 'any means necessary' tactics are considered smart and fair game as long as they work."?

Re: China now the most prolific contributor to physical sciences, engineering, math

#40
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all Chinese people that I've worked are like this. But the most cheating, backstabbing, manipulative coworkers I've had were all Chinese. From what I understand, in Chinese culture 'any means necessary' tactics are considered smart and fair game as long as they work.

I don't think you realize how racist this statement is. I'm also surprised you've never met manipulative people who are not Chinese, like, are you living in rural China?

This is a known Chinese problem, not racist it is ingrained in their culture. Chinese will literally riot if they are not allowed to cheat..
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