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Brave files adtech complaint against Google

reuters.com

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Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#111

Post by 1qaz2wsx »

jonathansampson wrote: post #54
martindale wrote: post #14

Brave's strategy of replacing ads with other ads isn't going to do anyone any good. They could've used payment channels to build a content distribution network, but alas...

I'd like to respond, as a developer on the Brave project. We don't simply replace ads with other ads. The entire ad landscape has been co-opted by those who aim to collect as much data about you as is possible. Over 600 million devices were running some form of ad-blocking software in 2017, and that was an increase of 30% from the year prior. This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Users…

Isn't Brave using the blink engine from Chrome - which was funded by Google based on the ad revenues?

The BAT grant is just Brave burning VC money to get some market share and eventually some pie of the Adtech eco-system?

Also, not sure how ad fraud is relevant here or how Brave will prevent it?

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#112

Post by jonathansampson »

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #107
jordigh wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Yeah, find some other way to make money than ads. Whenever you tell me that I have to watch ads for the good of capitalism, I feel a horrible contradiction in my gut. I don't want ads at all. It's like everyone has wasps and needs their wasps to get into my car and some businesses promise me that their wasps aren't so bad, so can I please roll dow…

Let's say bees. "I see the problem is bees in your car. We would like to solve this by filling your car with different, quieter bees. In exchange for this, we are willing to give you some of the honey."

No, Brave says "no bees" by default. Secondly, you are hoisting upon ads a prejudicial bias by likening them, necessarily, to bees. Ads aren't the problem; the bees who hide behind them are. Either way, if you don't want them, you don't get them. It's an opt-in system.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#114

Post by jordigh »

CobrastanJorji wrote: post #107
jordigh wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Yeah, find some other way to make money than ads. Whenever you tell me that I have to watch ads for the good of capitalism, I feel a horrible contradiction in my gut. I don't want ads at all. It's like everyone has wasps and needs their wasps to get into my car and some businesses promise me that their wasps aren't so bad, so can I please roll dow…

Let's say bees. "I see the problem is bees in your car. We would like to solve this by filling your car with different, quieter bees. In exchange for this, we are willing to give you some of the honey."

More like, "in exchange, we'll make more honey that you can buy from us too."

I gain nothing by watching ads. All I get is the creation of a need or desire that I didn't have before I watched the ad. Ads increase demand. Telling me that your business will fail unless I voluntarily inconvenience myself is not endearing me to your business.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#115

Post by ArchTypical »

msla wrote: post #67
martindale wrote: post #14

Brave's strategy of replacing ads with other ads isn't going to do anyone any good. They could've used payment channels to build a content distribution network, but alas...

Just to get people on the same page, Doc Searls has a good post on the difference between advertising and adtech, and why replacing adtech with advertising is something one might want to do: http://blogs.harvard.edu/doc/2018/05/12/gdpr/ > Advertising isn’t personal, and doesn’t have to be. In fact, knowing it’s not personal is an advantage for advertisers. Consumers don’t wonder what the hell an ad is doing where it…

As someone who worked in AdTech and Advertising, AdTech is just the technology of automated identification of online visitors and the sale of that information. There's no need for a whole article, you can comprehend it from the term itself.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#116

Post by nil_pointer »

fiatjaf wrote: post #71
nil_pointer wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is special about implementing anything Bitcoin+Lightning? BAT clones are already being developed on EOS and IOTA (both speedy networks with 0 cost transactions). Here's the IOTA advertising project: https://oysterprotocol.com/

Didn't know that. It's good news people are willing to reimplement BAT. Special about Bitcoin+Lightning is that these are probably going to last and truly function as money while these others you cited don't.

Both of the projects mentioned are in the top 10 of crypto projects and have billions in their marketcap, why don't you think they'll exist in the future? Over 100 engineers and scientists work at the IOTA foundation, and EOS probably has similar numbers.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#117

Post by jonathansampson »

quotemstr wrote: post #108
jordigh wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Yeah, find some other way to make money than ads. Whenever you tell me that I have to watch ads for the good of capitalism, I feel a horrible contradiction in my gut. I don't want ads at all. It's like everyone has wasps and needs their wasps to get into my car and some businesses promise me that their wasps aren't so bad, so can I please roll dow…

When a site advertises to support itself, it's entering a consensual and mutually beneficial relationship with visitors: readers give up a sliver of their attention and in exchange get otherwise-free content. Are you suggesting that we make it illegal to enter into this kind of consensual and mutually beneficial business arrangement?

Brave doesn't touch first-party ads. If you wish to advertise to your visitors, we respect that. But opening a tunnel to third party ads and trackers, which are foisted upon the user without their consent, is not okay.

Ads are no longer pixels on the screen; they're so much more than that. They're monitoring your activity, your movement, your most intimate details, and more. They're collecting this data, storing it, selling it, and all without your consent.

Users have the right to protect themselves. Unfortunately, the current solution (simple ad-blocking) hurts the web and all who create it. Brave wishes to deliver a better solution; one that protects the user, and serves the content creator.

By improving the system, you reduce fraud, which in turn creates more revenue for the content creators and users alike. Everybody benefits under this model, unlike the current model, where everybody is equally, and increasingly suffering.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#118

Post by jonathansampson »

jordigh wrote: post #114
CobrastanJorji wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say bees. "I see the problem is bees in your car. We would like to solve this by filling your car with different, quieter bees. In exchange for this, we are willing to give you some of the honey."

More like, "in exchange, we'll make more honey that you can buy from us too." I gain nothing by watching ads. All I get is the creation of a need or desire that I didn't have before I watched the ad. Ads increase demand. Telling me that your business will fail unless I voluntarily inconvenience myself is not endearing me to your business.

If you wish not to see ads (even ads which don't track, and pay you 70% of their revenue), then you stick with the default, out-of-box experience. Brave is an ad and tracker blocker, by default.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#119

Post by faag36 »

dest wrote: post #94
faag36 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Internet for people who don't know about ad blockers must be a horrible place, it's no wonder everybody started using apps for everything.

Aren't apps also crippled by ads?

Some have ads, but they are definitely not crippled by ads and malware.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#120

Post by jonathansampson »

1qaz2wsx wrote: post #111
jonathansampson wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to respond, as a developer on the Brave project. We don't simply replace ads with other ads. The entire ad landscape has been co-opted by those who aim to collect as much data about you as is possible. Over 600 million devices were running some form of ad-blocking software in 2017, and that was an increase of 30% from the year prior. This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Users…

Isn't Brave using the blink engine from Chrome - which was funded by Google based on the ad revenues? The BAT grant is just Brave burning VC money to get some market share and eventually some pie of the Adtech eco-system? Also, not sure how ad fraud is relevant here or how Brave will prevent it?

Yes, Brave is using the Blink engine (via Chromium). Chromium is an open source project with many contributors (including Google). Google uses this as part of their larger strategy involving ads and trackers, no doubt. But at the end of the day, it's a tool for displaying websites. To what ends you use it is dependent upon your end goal. Google used to tell everybody "Don't be evil" was at the core of their being; Brave says "Can't be evil". This is a stark difference-Google maintains the capacity to do harm, whereas Brave precludes it.

The Basic Attention Token User Growth Pool was created during our Token Sale in 2017; not from VC funds.

Ad Fraud is relevant because it claims more and more digital advertising dollars each year. Estimate today put it over 20 billion. By reducing middle-men, clearing up reporting, and more, there is less revenue lost, and therefore more revenue for creators and users alike.

By moving ad-matching and more into the Browser, we make it much harder to defraud the system. Further, this system rests solely in the user's domain; you control what is shown and with what frequency.

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