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Brave files adtech complaint against Google

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Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#51
post #19
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally speaking, ad networks don't sell personal data. That's their secret sauce - selling it is largely counterproductive. I can't call up Yahoo, and ask to buy the personal data of "forapurpose". If I could, it would take me a few million dollars to build a clone of their most valuable asset - their user database. What they sell is ad spots in webpages, when those webpages are visited by people who satisfy some…

While it is technically correct that ad networks don't sell personal data, it is also irrelevant. It's not the bits that matter, it's what one does informed by the bits. Ad networks sell _actionable insights_ informed by personal data. An ad network answers the question 'what is the best way to spend $$$ and win this election' _using_ personal data of millions of people, but not _revealing_ the personal data to the p…

We're going off into the weeds of philosophy, but...

Do you mean it's evil to collect the personal data for the purpose of selling ad impressions of it's evil to collect personal data, full-stop? I want companies like Google collecting my personal data to, for example, provide me context-relevant search and map navigation results and voice-assistant actions. So it doesn't seem like evil-full-stop passes the smell test.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real future is fully-decentralized websites, and it doesn't require new browsers. Let's say I want to run a forum. Something equivalent to, hmm, https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/ How do I do that as a decentralized website?

Hypothetically, you could use something akin to Usenet's technical model (as that was a fully-decentralized message board collection). But that will have implications for latency of post updates, security, and complexity of maintaining the system.

> you could use something akin to Usenet's technical model (as that was a fully-decentralized message board collection).

That was effectively funded by taxpayers by way of universities.

Maybe the answer is public funding for online content, but we should be clear about it. This is an economic problem, not a technical one. Federation might slice the economic problem into smaller pieces, but they still need to be paid for.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#53
post #47

"The GDPR is the first data privacy regime that foresees heavy fines for serious violations - of up to 4 percent of a company’s global turnover." What would happen if a company decided that 4 percent of turnover is much cheaper than properly securing all of their data, and just chooses to pay the fine every year?

For a public company? Probably rapid replacement of the C-suite. Almost nobody has margins fat enough to put up with that.

Would pulling out of EU be a better decision in this scenario?

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#54

Brave's strategy of replacing ads with other ads isn't going to do anyone any good. They could've used payment channels to build a content distribution network, but alas...

I'd like to respond, as a developer on the Brave project. We don't simply replace ads with other ads. The entire ad landscape has been co-opted by those who aim to collect as much data about you as is possible.

Over 600 million devices were running some form of ad-blocking software in 2017, and that was an increase of 30% from the year prior. This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done.

Users who come to Brave are already blocking ads. They understand the risk involved in letting third-party software collect information about them, their person, their browsing habits, and more. Further, the risk of drive-by downloads is on the rise (or the growing popularity of crypto-jacking).

Brave blocks ads and trackers for safety and privacy reasons. But we are not so naive to miss the impact this has on well-meaning publishers. This is why we created the User Growth Pool, and the Brave Payments system. Every month we pour hundreds of thousands of dollars back into the pockets of content creators by way of BAT (Basic Attention Token) grants, distributed freely to users of the Brave browser.

But grants won't last forever, something sustainable has be erected in place of the incumbent digital advertising system. This is where Brave Ads comings into play.

For users who opt in, Brave can deliver better quality ads, without the risk of personal data leakage. We do this by using local machine-learning to understand the user better, and making local decisions as to which ads should or should not be shown, and when (the user controls all of this). Furthermore, the user gets 70% of the ad revenue for browser-private ads.

When you consider the amount of money lost to digital ad fraud each year (over $20,000,000,000 I believe), you can see how the Brave system would lead to a much better, and more sustainable future for the web.

We're not simply replacing ads. We're rescuing an industry.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#55
post #16
post #7

Its admirable what brave is trying to do. Practically speaking, its one of the best chance we have of creating a new internet where the incentives are more privacy focused. Hope they succeed.

They're so admirable that they take a 5% cut of your donations to sites you visit and replace ads with their own. Call me crazy, but in no future can I imagine anyone willingly paying their browser vendor for anything. Brave isn't the future, it's yet another cash grab. The real future is fully-decentralized websites, and it doesn't require new browsers. Edit: Fixed inaccuracy pointed out by Brave developer

You're 100% incorrect; the ad blocker is on by default. And Brave doesn't show any ads by default. I would like to invite you to actually download the application before making such egregious claims.

Also, consider reading my response to "replacing ads" here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17972072

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real future is fully-decentralized websites, and it doesn't require new browsers. Let's say I want to run a forum. Something equivalent to, hmm, https://forums.sufficientvelocity.com/ How do I do that as a decentralized website?

Hypothetically, you could use something akin to Usenet's technical model (as that was a fully-decentralized message board collection). But that will have implications for latency of post updates, security, and complexity of maintaining the system.

Eh. My vision is something more like Twitter.

At the very core it comes down to whether or not people will have always-connected device that can do simple tasks for them. Imagine a layered webs-of-trust from Layer 2 up. Person P1 can trust router R1 (the one they use at home) to accept messages for them. They follow P2, P3, P4 on this future Twitter. P2 may entrust their friend's router. To deliver messages from internet piece to internet piece you use the WoT to make sure that the packets you are sending are from trusted computers. Some institutions, like banks, say, may be more forgiving than others because they have a profit incentive, so if your home computer gets hacked they may disallow your packets for a while, but once you get a fixed computer you're off to the races again.

Forums could be done in a multitude of ways, but what you are primarily asking for is for open forums. But it isn't possible to secure an open forum. We see this over and over again as spammers push their garbage down everyones throats or gloss it up by astroturfing. We can have relative anonymity, for example, Person P1 signs trust to Alias A5. We could even use something more complicated like what Monero does, but I worry at some point it will just turn into another form of money and that is antithetical to the whole model which should harshly punish people and devices that supply trust for cash.

Anyway, I know its a bit abstract, but you could have a forum. And it could be more or less realtime (since I'm getting updates pushed to my own device) but you're right, it is way more complicated and wouldn't truly be the same thing.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#57

They are arguing that the surveillance core of adtech is a GDPR violation, if I understand correctly. > The complaint argues that when a person visits a website, intimate personal data that describe them and what they are doing online is broadcast to tens or hundreds of companies without their knowledge in order to auction and place ads. It would be great if someone with real expertise in GDPR or adtech could provide…

Currently the adtech companies trying to rely on the legal basis of Consent - they get the user to explicitly agree to the processing required for targeted advertising with a popup advert.

There is a great NGO of lawyers called NOYB (None of Your Business) in Austria who has filed complaints with Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram and Android about the consent dialogs not being valid under GDPR.

The complaint PDFs are worth glancing through to see how disingenuous the adtech companies are in their attempts to appear to comply with consent, when I think anyone reasonable would agree they are not.

https://noyb.eu/

I'm curious as to the detail of Brave's complaint, which seems to add even more to this.

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#58
post #50

Seems like a strange choice to file a GDRP complaint in a country that will stop being an EU member state in less than a year, but I'm sure their lawyers know more than I do

The UK Government has said GDPR will continue to apply after Brexit, and passed the laws to make that the case. http://www.blplaw.com/expert-legal-insights/articles/gdpr-an... The official reason given being: "Over 70% of all trade in services are enabled by data flows, meaning that data protection is critical to international trade." While Britain is on course to leave the EU (one specific body), it will continue to…

Google EU routes all revenue through an Irish shell corporation, right?

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#59
post #3

This comes at the same time that Malwarebytes starts flagging Brave as malware[1]. [1] https://twitter.com/lukesawczak/status/1039854898068815873

Could this be related to some sort of bundle-ware in the Brave installer?

Or in affiliate-type linking into Brave installer ?

Google Chrome cracked down on these 2 yrs ago but making they are making a comeback ?

Re: Brave files adtech complaint against Google

#60

Brave's strategy of replacing ads with other ads isn't going to do anyone any good. They could've used payment channels to build a content distribution network, but alas...

I'd like to respond, as a developer on the Brave project. We don't simply replace ads with other ads. The entire ad landscape has been co-opted by those who aim to collect as much data about you as is possible. Over 600 million devices were running some form of ad-blocking software in 2017, and that was an increase of 30% from the year prior. This number keeps growing, year over year. Something has to be done. Users…

I'm curious, do you have any evidence that most people are installing ad blockers as a privacy measure?

I don't have any hard evidence, but I imagine most people block ads because they don't want to have to scroll past a bunch of banners and videos to read the article they want to read. Certainly there are many people who are concerned about privacy, but I don' think that's what's driving the popularity of ad blockers. At least personally I have always viewed ad blockers like DVRs for the web.

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