LOLWUT: a piece of art inside a database command • Hacker News Board

Re: LOLWUT: a piece of art inside a database command

#21

Post by citilife » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

ksri wrote: post #3

boxy_brown wrote: post #2

It's been a rough few weeks for antirez, but I just want to say how much I appreciate his work on Redis and open source in general. We're lucky to have him.

Absolutely. First was the Apache commons clause license, and responding to random folks who assumed Redis was going closed source. Then the current issue of changing master slave termibology,and having to hear negative things from both the camps. Lolwut is the perfect break from madness.

I think it's sad this was a debate at all. As a maintainer, there is some responsibility to respond to people who are working with you or using your product.

On the other hand, personally I would have just said: "deal with it".

The fact of the matter is, virtually no one has been or is a slave, no one is being mocked, no one is being belittled, it's a term used to describe a system. Sure, it could be more "politically correct" (I use master and worker, personally) - however, if I inherited or was working on a code base. I would not have been as open to changing terminology as this guy.

As he put it, we are there to program.

If it doesn't enhance readability, speed, etc. it's not changing - stop wasting my time. As a "computer scientist" we should try to be objective about terms, and build forward. That means, potentially changing that terminology for the future, but also not being emotionally attached to the terms which are not intended to be subversive, subjective, etc.

We live in a society, people are going to use the term "slave" to describe things, people are going to say things you don't like, use terms you don't enjoy. I hate acronyms, I find that it is a way to segment a society or group into those who know them and those who don't. Even the term "LOLWUT", means you need to understand the term "LOL" and where "WUT" comes from.

... And that's my point, as a society, I shouldn't be pushing my preferences onto you. I should be learning to deal with my own emotions and understanding. If it's something that impacts my freedom, then maybe I should bring it up. Calling something a "slave" doesn't mean it impacts your freedom.

Re: LOLWUT: a piece of art inside a database command

#22

Post by kawsper » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 4:53 PM UTC

bovermyer wrote: post #11

We seem to be losing our playfulness. In light of that, I'm going to take some time today to do something random, just for fun, and share it with others.

I added this header to all of our http-responses: "X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett"

Which was proposed by http://www.gnuterrypratchett.com/ and as far as I know no one have noticed :)

Re: LOLWUT: a piece of art inside a database command

#23

Post by village-idiot » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 4:54 PM UTC

bovermyer wrote: post #10

Aloha wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm both aghast and amused that people are making a big deal about master/slave when used in the context of computers.

The way I look at it, the amount of effort required to change that terminology is less than the amount of community discomfort generated by keeping it.

That's all kind of tossed out the window when people start bullying the maintainer to get their way. Now you have to deal with the fact that some members of the debate are decidedly acting in bad faith, making it much cheaper to simply say "okay, fuck off now, we aren't talking about this".

Re: LOLWUT: a piece of art inside a database command

#24

Post by codezero » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 4:55 PM UTC

bovermyer wrote: post #10

Aloha wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm both aghast and amused that people are making a big deal about master/slave when used in the context of computers.

The way I look at it, the amount of effort required to change that terminology is less than the amount of community discomfort generated by keeping it.

I'll add another point: if the reason to not do this is the effort, then why is effort being put into generative art in redis? To be clear, I think this is neat, and appreciate that antirez can and should add some joy into the world in what ever way they see fit. I'm just playing devil's advocate.

With that said, changing terminology is more than just a code change, there's a bunch of documentation, as well as possible downstream effects that would need to be clearly communicated without causing breaking changes. I still think it's worth being conscious of the words we use, and rather than looking at it as a "us vs them" political game, as a way to introspect and reflect on how we use words, and what they communicate. Falling back on "it's how we always did it" is a cop out, but if you're the maintainer of a project, it's up to you if you want to do that or not, and I don't think it's worthwhile for a community to harass someone for their decision, antirez was pretty open about this all.

Re: LOLWUT: a piece of art inside a database command

#25

Post by bovermyer » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 4:58 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #17

bovermyer wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I look at it, the amount of effort required to change that terminology is less than the amount of community discomfort generated by keeping it.

It makes me very angry when "they" (I'm not even sure who "they" are or what their motives are) go around policing random software projects for political correctness compliance, bullying/mobbing the maintainers if they don't comply, etc. These people even go after your project if one of your maintainers is deemed politically incorrect outside of the scope of the project (i.e. on Twitter) and demand they be kicked out…

Since time immemorial, some people have gotten outraged over what others consider to be ridiculous or trivial things. That hasn't changed.

The only thing that has changed is that social media and the Internet in general have made it much easier to organize.

Software projects have always been plagued by humans arguing with each other.

Re: LOLWUT: a piece of art inside a database command

#26

Post by dudul » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:04 PM UTC

bovermyer wrote: post #10

Aloha wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm both aghast and amused that people are making a big deal about master/slave when used in the context of computers.

The way I look at it, the amount of effort required to change that terminology is less than the amount of community discomfort generated by keeping it.

Why didn't the community open a PR against the repo?

Re: LOLWUT: a piece of art inside a database command

#27

Post by Washuu » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:07 PM UTC

village-idiot wrote: post #23

bovermyer wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I look at it, the amount of effort required to change that terminology is less than the amount of community discomfort generated by keeping it.

That's all kind of tossed out the window when people start bullying the maintainer to get their way. Now you have to deal with the fact that some members of the debate are decidedly acting in bad faith, making it much cheaper to simply say "okay, fuck off now, we aren't talking about this".

That is exactly what I have done in the past. I have told social justice warriors patrolling around to random projects that do not even contribute to leave and not come back. My response to those that do contribute to the project is, "Are you will to make, test, and solely support this massive change for the next three years as part of a long term support release?".

Re: LOLWUT: a piece of art inside a database command

#28

Post by jerven » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

kawsper wrote: post #22

bovermyer wrote: post #11

We seem to be losing our playfulness. In light of that, I'm going to take some time today to do something random, just for fun, and share it with others.

I added this header to all of our http-responses: "X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett" Which was proposed by http://www.gnuterrypratchett.com/ and as far as I know no one have noticed :)

I noticed, laughed a lot and then got sad knowing that wit isn't there anymore.

Re: LOLWUT: a piece of art inside a database command

#29

Post by s_kilk » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:19 PM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #7

ksri wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. First was the Apache commons clause license, and responding to random folks who assumed Redis was going closed source. Then the current issue of changing master slave termibology,and having to hear negative things from both the camps. Lolwut is the perfect break from madness.

I'm both aghast and amused that people are making a big deal about master/slave when used in the context of computers.

Where did the computer people get the term from?

Re: LOLWUT: a piece of art inside a database command

#30

Post by etcet » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:21 PM UTC

cabaalis wrote: post #18

kbsletten wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea of "master" as in a definitive or original copy has enough usage that it's considered a second meaning of the word. I guess it's still possible that people will be upset, but without "slave", it's not unreasonable to assume that people will think of a key or album master instead of a slaver.

Is master/slave even a proper term to begin with? If we approach it from a "human slavery" standpoint, the master directs slaves to perform tasks that the master does not itself perform. Master/replica makes sense to me in the context of copies that all perform the same function, including the master.

Now this is the kind of argument that could actually persuade any remaining holdouts. It's not bad terminology because it's offensive but because it's inaccurate!