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How America lost its love for the stick shift

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Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#681

Post by nkantar »

themark wrote: post #115
nkantar wrote: post #32

> Take the Subaru BRZ. The popular sports car was once sold only with a manual transmission, but sales are now 90 percent automatic, Fiske estimated. I find this a bit difficult to believe. The automatic option has a reputation for being pretty good, but the manual is excellent. It was certainly never even a matter of choice for me, and for the growing number of (BRZ/(GT)86/FR-S) enthusiasts I know. Yes, I'm in a nic…

Surprised me too! Only reason I can think of is that the real enthusiasts bought them early on. Now, most people buy them because they want a 'sports car'; only 10% are actual enthusiasts.

I can see that, but I choose to remain unrealistically optimistic in the face of reality anyway. :D

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#682

Post by ernesth »

Markoff wrote: post #658
LeonM wrote: post #568

In Europe, the manual/automatic situation is quite the opposite of that in the USA. Here all standard, cheap cars are manual, and only the expensive luxury cars have automatic transmissions. (At least in the Netherlands) driving lessons/tests must done in manual cars, unless you have some medical reason not to (then you'll also get a note on your license, prohibiting you from driving manual cars). Automatic transmiss…

you live in past, nowadays even middle class cars have automatic transmission because it saves petrol opposed to past when it was exactly opposite even cheap cars can have automatic transmission, it's just option and not standard

If you add options to a cheap car, it becomes an expensive car.

Dacia sandero costs 7990€. Dacia Sandero with automatic transmission costs 13750€.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#683

Post by Diederich »

mrbrowning wrote: post #366
Diederich wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> although my casual understanding is that an electric motor without a gearbox is still going to be limited in its ability to provide torque at high rotor speeds BTW I find your entire comment pretty interesting. So the current top speed on Tesla Models S3X is 155MPH. The Roadster 2 is expected to have a top speed of 250MPH. Is the 155MPH an example of what you're referencing Re: high rotor speed? Thanks.

Less top speed, which is governed by many factors (consider that maintaining any constant speed in a vehicle requires some minimum power output to counter losses to heat/friction throughout the drivetrain and between the vehicle and oncoming air, not to mention the maximum safe operating speed of the drivetrain components themselves), but rather the potential for acceleration. If you look at the torque curve for some…

Cool, thanks!

> Caveat: I'm just an automotive hobbyist

Yeah, I'm not even a hobbyist really. (: Just interested in electric vehicles.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#684

Post by johnvanommen »

chrisdhoover wrote: post #345
t0mbstone wrote: post #163

Speaking as someone who has owned a number of sports cars with manual transmissions, I can tell you why I finally made the switch to automatic: Adaptive cruise control in stop and go traffic. I used to have to deal with a six-speed manual transmission in stop and go traffic for an hour every day, and it was pure torture. I mean, sure, it was fun for a weekend drive in the mountains, but it sucked the rest of the time…

I just do like the truckers do, leave it in second and crawl. It helps to not be concerned with maintaining a 6 inch gap with the car ahead. I truly believe that stop and go is caused by automatics. All of the brake tapping tends to bunch people up at the end of long lines forcing them to a complete stop. In a manual just let off on the gas a little and the engine brakes a little, no brake lights to create cascading…

Interesting point. I definitely notice that I 'coast' more in a manual.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#685

Post by nradov »

entee wrote: post #412
t0mbstone wrote: post #163

Speaking as someone who has owned a number of sports cars with manual transmissions, I can tell you why I finally made the switch to automatic: Adaptive cruise control in stop and go traffic. I used to have to deal with a six-speed manual transmission in stop and go traffic for an hour every day, and it was pure torture. I mean, sure, it was fun for a weekend drive in the mountains, but it sucked the rest of the time…

At this point performance cars are no longer truly exploitable on a road legally. Yeah you can do a quick acceleration at the occasional stoplight, but on pretty much no public road are you going to get to a speed that's close to the car's limit. And if you do, it'll be insanely dangerous because even though safety systems are amazing these days, your reaction time isn't any faster than it used to be and the people a…

This is why the low-end sports car market is slowly dying. Cars have improved so much that modern family sedans are faster than dedicated sports cars from a few decades ago.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#686

Post by rootusrootus »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #441
rootusrootus wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, unless you're looking to actually buy, who says it has to be in the right price range? ;-)

I am though- need to replace my manual wrx with something fun that my wife can drive :)

I can't really help, then, I'm not really familiar with what the state of the art in four-cylinder hot hatches are at this point (and in any case, Subaru will not be leading edge in that regard; I have loved all my Subarus, especially my two STIs, but automatics are definitely not something Subaru is any good at). The newer A8 and A10s that GM uses in their performance cars (and Ford in some cases), as well as the latest stuff from MB, are fantastic automatics. Until this latest generation came along, I assumed DCT was the future. Now I'd be surprised to see it hang on much more than a few more years before being phased out.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#687

Post by rootusrootus »

skookumchuck wrote: post #457
rootusrootus wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said ... we will go learn to drive the monster, and then they will not really get many opportunities after that. Show some responsibility and I may let them drive it some more with me in the car, but it will be some time before I trust them to have unlimited access to a high performance car. Though to be fair, the latest iteration of the stability and traction control is pretty amazing. Short of turning it off,…

I drove one way with my dad in the car, another way when he wasn't. Suffice to say I'm lucky to have survived intact into adulthood. I haven't driven a nanny car and don't know what they're like. They should have a "teenager" mode which detunes it to 100HP :-)

The latest iterations of stability control have gotten quite good. I can drive my '18 1LE like a jerk, in the rain, on twisty roads and other than the flashing of the warning light it's not really intrusive, it just keeps me from going sideways. Quite remarkable how well they've dialed it in. Once in a while it does kill the fun too abruptly, but mostly it just makes you think the car has vastly more traction than it does.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#688

Post by nradov »

This article missed the franchise dealer economic factors. Due to the floorplan financing system, US dealers for volume brands don't want to take custom orders anymore. They live or die by inventory turnover rate and so they want to sell you a car that's on the lot today. Thus they mostly stock only the most popular combinations of options. Most buyers who would prefer a manual are also willing to buy an automatic, but buyers who want an automatic won't buy a manual. So the dealers don't stock manuals.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#689

Post by davewritescode »

hfdgiutdryg wrote: post #655
davewritescode wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even torque converter automatics don't use torque converters for anything other than low speeds anymore. Most modern automatic transmissions have the ability to mechanically couple the input shaft directly to the transmission effectively bypassing the torque converter in most if not every gear. It's one the of the reasons the ZF8 transmission is used in everything from the new BMW 8 series down to the Dodge Charger.

Even torque converter automatics don't use torque converters for anything other than low speeds anymore. Unless something has changed radically in the last few years, that's just not true. The torque converter will drop out of lock-up as soon as you demand sufficient acceleration (this will vary tremendously by engine - i.e. an inline four will do it regularly, a big V8 may meet most of your acceleration needs withou…

Locking out the torque converter isn't a new idea, it's just that newer transmissions are very aggressive with engaging the lockout thanks to all the software that lives in a modern car.

Having spent a decent amount of time with ZF8 speed the torque converter is almost always locked out. Throttle response and engine braking don't lie.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#690

Post by 9wzYQbTYsAIc »

chrisdhoover wrote: post #345
t0mbstone wrote: post #163

Speaking as someone who has owned a number of sports cars with manual transmissions, I can tell you why I finally made the switch to automatic: Adaptive cruise control in stop and go traffic. I used to have to deal with a six-speed manual transmission in stop and go traffic for an hour every day, and it was pure torture. I mean, sure, it was fun for a weekend drive in the mountains, but it sucked the rest of the time…

I just do like the truckers do, leave it in second and crawl. It helps to not be concerned with maintaining a 6 inch gap with the car ahead. I truly believe that stop and go is caused by automatics. All of the brake tapping tends to bunch people up at the end of long lines forcing them to a complete stop. In a manual just let off on the gas a little and the engine brakes a little, no brake lights to create cascading…

Isn’t it still true that an AT will have a no-pedal-applied speed of > 0 mph, whereas an MT will have a no-pedal-applied speed of 0? (Assuming flat surface and MT in neutral or assuming MT stalls engine in-gear)
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