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Preventing Muscle Loss as We Age

nytimes.com

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Re: Preventing Muscle Loss as We Age

#61

Post by atomical »

doctorcroc wrote: post #35
adrianN wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not mean to imply that, I just wanted to make the point that eating less is not always good advice, in particular in the age bracket that suffers from age related muscle loss.

You're right, and there's always exceptions to the rule. Eg some of those with life threatening injuries probably need processed food in the interim. But the general point stands which is that human longevity had been correlated with caloric restriction. Even in Ben Franklin's wit and wisdom, he remarks that to preserve one's life, one should eat less. This observation is timeless

Human longevity has also been correlated with many other things.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone

Re: Preventing Muscle Loss as We Age

#62

Post by bmj »

Mc_Big_G wrote: post #46
ubermonkey wrote: post #34

ZOMG find something to do, and keep doing it. Cycling is very nerd-friendly. There are numbers and gadgets and even what amounts to an MMO in Zwift.

According to the article, cycling isn't enough. You need to do heavier resistance training.

I think it's important to qualify this, at least a little bit. Life-long endurance athletes will still maintain muscle as they age, but you can't expect to take up casual cycling as an overweight, sedentary 45+ year old and have that sort of physiological change. Strength/resistance training is ideal if you are trying to push back against the effects of a sedentary lifestyle.

All that said--most serious endurance athletes are realizing that they need to hit the proverbial weight room, at least at certain times during the year.

Re: Preventing Muscle Loss as We Age

#63

Post by adrianN »

doctorcroc wrote: post #35
adrianN wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not mean to imply that, I just wanted to make the point that eating less is not always good advice, in particular in the age bracket that suffers from age related muscle loss.

You're right, and there's always exceptions to the rule. Eg some of those with life threatening injuries probably need processed food in the interim. But the general point stands which is that human longevity had been correlated with caloric restriction. Even in Ben Franklin's wit and wisdom, he remarks that to preserve one's life, one should eat less. This observation is timeless

I don't think caloric restriction has been shown to increase lifespan in humans. It works very well in the mouse model, but iirc monkeys don't benefit (as much?).

Re: Preventing Muscle Loss as We Age

#64

Post by atomical »

morsma wrote: post #7
atomical wrote: post #2

Notice that there is no mention of diet because diet doesn't matter that much as long as there is a surplus. The body is pretty amazing.

Diet is extremely important on these matters, where did you get the idea it wasn't?

Apparently not because it didn't play a big role in the outcome. Did you read the article?

> A decline in physical activity, common among older people, is only one reason sarcopenia happens. Other contributing factors include hormonal changes, chronic illness, body-wide inflammation and poor nutrition.

Re: Preventing Muscle Loss as We Age

#65

Post by atomical »

maxerickson wrote: post #10
atomical wrote: post #2

Notice that there is no mention of diet because diet doesn't matter that much as long as there is a surplus. The body is pretty amazing.

Poor nutrition is mentioned.

> A decline in physical activity, common among older people, is only one reason sarcopenia happens. Other contributing factors include hormonal changes, chronic illness, body-wide inflammation and poor nutrition.

It's wasn't a major cause of muscle loss.

Re: Preventing Muscle Loss as We Age

#66

Post by saiya-jin »

matwood wrote: post #33
lysp wrote: post #14

I always like to show this picture as an example. https://i.imgur.com/ZcDedfo.jpg I don't have an original source but it shows a MRI leg scan comparison between a 40yo triathlete, a sedentary 70yo and a 70yo triathlete. The picture tells the story...

Most people have no idea I'm 41, and instead think I'm in my 30s. Balding and grey hair show I'm not in my 20s ;) My 'secret' is I workout every single day . I might do heavy weight training, sled pushing, surfing, or a spin class. It doesn't matter as long as I do something physically challenging. I also follow an 80/20 rule on eating paleo-ish. Mainly I try to avoid processed foods, but I'll still eat a pizza or go…

In similar state here - working out almost daily, weekends are reserved for mountains in whatever form (that's actually one of my motivations to work out - to enjoy adventures however difficult they might be ,and be as safe as possible).

Having to stop working out, either due to illness, injury or some obscure travelling makes me almost depressed, not only because of the drop experienced once coming back to gym. It is just a great feeling to be fit, even when I count in almost constant slight muscle ache from workouts. I stopped using massages to work on those muscle bumps/knots on the back - no point getting rid of them when I put them back in 2-3 days.

But I do have rest days, usually when my quads become semi-useless (having 1 hour brisk walk is still a rest day). I can't push on every single day so usually have 1 rest day per week, or injuries will come (usually in form of stretched ligament or tendon pain).

What I don't like in the article is universal recommendation of eating more proteins - there are some sources which are not OK to consume long-term, ie predatory fish like salmon or tuna. Quality of the meats in general is important (no growth hormones/antibiotics).

And generally, eat much more vegetables, again good quality. There are tons of benefits.

Re: Preventing Muscle Loss as We Age

#67

Post by maxerickson »

wjnc wrote: post #50
rerx wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The picture is taken from this study: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3810/psm.2011.09.1933 (use Sci-Hub if you do not belong to an institution paying for access)

The fallacy in this article is as follows: (quote) "A cross-section of 40 high-level recreational athletes (“masters athletes”) who were aged 40 to 81 years and trained 4 to 5 times per week underwent tests of health/activity, body composition, quadriceps peak torque (PT), and magnetic resonance imaging of bilateral quadriceps." The 81 yr old that trains 4-5x (!) a week is a lot more special than the 40 yr old (that'…

The paper's discussion contains this statement:

In addition, studying masters athletes partially limits the applicability of these data to the general population of aging adults who do not aggressively exercise 4 to 5 times per week.

It's unfortunate that such a statement won't make it into popular treatments, but the paper doesn't get very far out over its skis.

Re: Preventing Muscle Loss as We Age

#68

Post by madeuptempacct »

stochastic_monk wrote: post #49
matwood wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people have no idea I'm 41, and instead think I'm in my 30s. Balding and grey hair show I'm not in my 20s ;) My 'secret' is I workout every single day . I might do heavy weight training, sled pushing, surfing, or a spin class. It doesn't matter as long as I do something physically challenging. I also follow an 80/20 rule on eating paleo-ish. Mainly I try to avoid processed foods, but I'll still eat a pizza or go…

I don’t do paleo or low carb or any fancy diet besides eating plenty of protein and calories. The key for me is regular, heavy strength training. I exercise 3-6 days a week, all compound lifts, at high weight/moderate (3-7) reps. More than just managing my physique, I find it immensely helpful for my mental health and general well-being. I’m not the biggest or most shredded guy in the gym, but the focus on strength k…

I can't handle more than 3 days a week at the gym. I do my main lifts only once a week or I don't recover, but I am still getting stronger on my program. I have been lifting for more than a decade though.

I do cardio and lift on the same day, I also can't run every day or I don't feel great.

On off days, I just walk and do minor accessory stuff. Can't imagine lifting like this every day.

Re: Preventing Muscle Loss as We Age

#69

Post by citation_please »

wjnc wrote: post #50
rerx wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The picture is taken from this study: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3810/psm.2011.09.1933 (use Sci-Hub if you do not belong to an institution paying for access)

The fallacy in this article is as follows: (quote) "A cross-section of 40 high-level recreational athletes (“masters athletes”) who were aged 40 to 81 years and trained 4 to 5 times per week underwent tests of health/activity, body composition, quadriceps peak torque (PT), and magnetic resonance imaging of bilateral quadriceps." The 81 yr old that trains 4-5x (!) a week is a lot more special than the 40 yr old (that'…

Huh. Well let's assume causality points in only one direction, genetics->tissue->ability, then I'm screwed and there's nothing I can do about it. Let's assume that it at least points partially in the other direction, ability->tissue, now I can keep my tissue healthy by exercising.

Since I don't know for sure which direction causality points, I'm going to take the path of maximal self-determinism and try to stay fit as long as possible.

Re: Preventing Muscle Loss as We Age

#70

Post by toasterlovin »

wjnc wrote: post #50
rerx wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The picture is taken from this study: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3810/psm.2011.09.1933 (use Sci-Hub if you do not belong to an institution paying for access)

The fallacy in this article is as follows: (quote) "A cross-section of 40 high-level recreational athletes (“masters athletes”) who were aged 40 to 81 years and trained 4 to 5 times per week underwent tests of health/activity, body composition, quadriceps peak torque (PT), and magnetic resonance imaging of bilateral quadriceps." The 81 yr old that trains 4-5x (!) a week is a lot more special than the 40 yr old (that'…

Your criticism is spot on. Separately, though, there is a growing community of people using weight training on older folks. It seems incredibly effective. Check out The Barbell Prescription by the Starting Strength folks if you’re interested.
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