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Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

nytimes.com

451–460 of 632 posts

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#451
post #428

A few threads seem to believe that the minimum wage is high enough / need not be increased. I don’t actually want to argue about mechanism, but think that it’s imoortant to note that the math says our (current) minimum wage is demonstrably insufficient to remove poverty. With the Federal minimum wage currently at $7.25/hr, that’s just $15k/year at full-time. That puts many minimum wage workers below many countries’ a…

Servers still have to receive the standard minimum wage. If their tips don’t bring them up to that level, their employer has to make up the difference. Of course, not all employers follow the law, but that’s the requirement.

Is that true, nationally? (I’ve heard conflicting things, and on my phone this is awfully hard to verify)

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#452
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This also shows why high import taxes are a necessity. Not an option for Denmark (because they've signed away that authority to Brussels), but a necessity nonetheless.

> This also shows why high import taxes are a necessity. How so? To artificially keep salaries high?

To prevent factories from avoiding low worker wages by producing in an area where those abusive salaries are allowed by the government, or even are the pervasive wages.

I would have no problem with producing locally where it makes sense, but not to avoid minimum legal standards for wages (or for that matter for other things like environment).

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#453
post #251
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thus putting him even further behind in the rat-race, where those who weren’t forced into debt due to their poor choice of birth parents (sarcasm, obviously) and circumstance.

Do you think the system should be structured so that no one is ever behind anyone else in the "rat race"?

From the starting point? Absolutely. That's essentially equality of opportunity in a nutshell. What you do with what you've got from a relatively equal starting point is up to you.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#454
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, of course you need a way to prevent employers from using various alternatives available to them. * You need very high import taxes, so goods have to be produced with local labour * If truly automation were to become pervasive, that needs taxing * You probably need restrictions to prevent money from crossing borders too easily * You can't have open borders (or) * You have to strongly respond to illegals working (…

> leftists and communists were strongly against immigration This is revisionism and ignores the whole "internationalism" vs "socialism in one country" debate. It also fails to recognise the history of nativist (far-)right anti-immigration parties and lefty anti-borders activists.

Internationalism on the left was going to force the world to become leftist by having a border between leftist and other governments. THAT border was going to have huge import taxes.

So no, I think not revisionist at all.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The maximum entropy situation is one dog with 6+ bones and lots with none. It is structurally broken at a statistical mechanics level if you are concerned about fairness.

It's not easy to imagine somebody having 6+ full time jobs. Just because the time of the worker is the limiting resource.

It is however easy to imagine "royalty employment": 1 executive employing 20 "clergymen" who don't work a lot but keep the executive happy, and who's needs are then maintained by 200 "peasants".

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#456
post #428

A few threads seem to believe that the minimum wage is high enough / need not be increased. I don’t actually want to argue about mechanism, but think that it’s imoortant to note that the math says our (current) minimum wage is demonstrably insufficient to remove poverty. With the Federal minimum wage currently at $7.25/hr, that’s just $15k/year at full-time. That puts many minimum wage workers below many countries’ a…

- Why or how would the minimum wage be compared to the average wage of another country? It's the minimum. - Agreed on the single earner families on minimum wage guaranteed to be in poverty. But, pointing somewhere else and saying "It's better there!" seems off to me. Pick a specific policy and advocate for it. Higher minimum wage? Guaranteed housing? Universal basic income?

Sorry, my comment started as a reply to the comment about “better than most countries” [1] (hence the comparison).

I explicitly didn’t want to make this comment about advocating for a policy, but first to make sure we’re all on the same page: the US minimum wage isn’t enough to get by on. I should have added that a huge portion of the labor force is at or near this rate, except again I’m on my phone, so I couldn’t back that with the precise number.

Since you asked, I’m one of the Basic Income folks :).

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17966080

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#457
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Servers still have to receive the standard minimum wage. If their tips don’t bring them up to that level, their employer has to make up the difference. Of course, not all employers follow the law, but that’s the requirement.

Is that true, nationally? (I’ve heard conflicting things, and on my phone this is awfully hard to verify)

Yes it is. See a link from the Department of Labor below.

https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#458
Well jobs absolutely are the solution for the 85% of Americans living above the poverty line. That said...

The article completely ignores the major cause of Vanessa's struggles: she is a single parent trying to raise three children. Where is the father of her children?

If you are not married, do not have children. Just going by the statistics, I suspect Vanessa's children were born out of wedlock.

Also, if you are very young (still in high school) and not on financially sound footing yet, do not have children.

Remedying these problems alone would massively reduce poverty.

Children are a massive financial and time sink, yet according to the Brookings Institute [1]:

"...more than 40 percent of American children, including more than 70 percent of black children and 50 percent of Hispanic children, are born outside marriage."

Many of these children are raised by single mothers and fathers. Sure, married people get divorced, but the number of children raised in single parent households is far less among those born to married adults than those who are not.

It's been clearly shown that the average child raised in a single parent household has worse outcomes than the average child raised in a two parent household.

Cultural issues must be addressed in this country, but everyone seems unwilling to do so because they worry about "blaming the victims".

Well in this case, poverty is clearly being perpetuated by poor decision making on the part of individuals and cultures which perpetuate this poor decision making. The "victims" are at fault.

Culture can be changed, but we must identify and talk about the problems before that change can occur.

[1] https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/three-simple-rules-poor-t...

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#459
post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Servers still have to receive the standard minimum wage. If their tips don’t bring them up to that level, their employer has to make up the difference. Of course, not all employers follow the law, but that’s the requirement.

Is that true, nationally? (I’ve heard conflicting things, and on my phone this is awfully hard to verify)

[deleted]

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#460

Both article and (so far) HN comments manage to avoid the phrase Protestant Work Ethic. The Protestant Work Ethic is a belief that work itself is inherently a good idea, usually because it is in some sense desirable by God, but this idea has outlasted mainstream confidence in the Protestant idea of a personal God. If you reject the PWE then very different possibilities emerge and in particular "full employment" stops…

If you ignore the religious association, how is this concept any different from the notion that society functions better when people are industrious and maximise their efforts to do things that are useful and valuable to others? I hear the PWE invoked (usually with a sneer), and reflect that it seems to be referring to exactly how my parents have operated throughout their adult lives, and that if everyone behaved the…

> If you ignore the religious association, how is this concept any different from the notion that society functions better when people are industrious and maximise their efforts to do things that are useful and valuable to others?

Probably the religious connection helps illuminate the problem more than it is hiding anything.

The reason this is called a Protestant work ethic is that some Christian sects don't think deeds matter, for them working isn't important, what matters is believing. So a sincere believer who rapes and murders is good, whereas an atheist who is kind and generous is evil. This quickly goes down a No True Scotsman rabbit hole with real Christians, but that's the summary. So the belief that what you do even _matters_ is fundamental to the PWE.

But it turns out that "what you do is what's important" is almost as flawed as "what you believe is what's important". In both cases these rely on a personal God keeping a running tally, they just disagree on what He's counting. But the real world has no personal God keeping that tally, it doesn't exist.

Your parents lives are consequential in their _effects_ not in terms of how much labour they put in to achieve those effects. The PWE quite intentionally doesn't care about those effects, what possible effect could you have next to the will of God anyway?

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