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How America lost its love for the stick shift

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Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#641

Post by hfdgiutdryg »

vinay427 wrote: post #530
tjr225 wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a casual theory that driving in the US relies upon every individual enforcing their own idea of what the rules should be, inherent to our culture. I really enjoy driving in Europe, but maybe it's delusional. There's an aggressive indifference that I perceive. We should mostly be on bikes and scooters anyway.

I have driven in both the US and a few European countries, and I would disagree with your proposed cause but agree somewhat with the effect. Having driven on long-distance road trips in the US, drivers are noticeably more competent than in (sub)urban highways, probably because the latter are filled with drivers who don't drive as much at those speeds. This is often inherently true in many western European countries i…

In every US city I've ever spent time in, including San Francisco and Portland, you're taking your life into your own hands every time you use a crosswalk. Or even a sidewalk, as people will just turn into driveways without checking if the sidewalk is clear first.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#642

Post by jdmichal »

telchar wrote: post #214
crunchlibrarian wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've tried lots of autos and CVTs and still haven't found one that isn't terribly confused about what gearing I want. The worst is when you floor it and it thinks for two seconds before actually downshifting, it can be outright dangerous. And if you're in a powerful car an unexpected upshift that shifts the weight around in bizarre ways, cuts power, and kicks the traction control into overdrive while cornering is a p…

I've been very happy with the Audi DSG. Absolutely no complaints. Though when I need to pass on a narrow road sometimes I use the paddle to downshift before I hit the gas just to save the car from the split second it takes to realize I'm serious about accelerating (when not in sport mode). But that's not a big difference in actual acceleration time.

I've had the same experience on my Audi 8-speed. When I want spirited driving, sport mode will tend to just be in the gear I want. Responsiveness in my car centers around turbo lag, not gear shifting.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#643

Post by hfdgiutdryg »

kaitai wrote: post #566
inferiorhuman wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Driving a manual car isn't about efficiency. It was about efficiency and cost for ages though. That's why manuals were popular and why they aren't popular in the US anymore. Modern automatics (dual clutch, CVTs, even computer controlled single clutch and plain old torque converter slushboxes) are so much more efficient now that manuals don't make as much sense as they used to.

Agree, simply in that by changing my driving style I could get 30+ miles per gallon of gas using a manual but not an automatic of the same type of car. It's interesting that people don't even know that anymore. Additionally, manual can be very useful in a snowy/icy climate -- starting into 2nd can get you going on a slippery road where some automatics will have trouble. Much more control of torque.

A modern DCT transmission doesn't use a torque converter, which is where most of the efficiency was lost. A DCT is effectively a manual transmission that's automatically operated.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#644

Post by uptime »

gwbas1c wrote: post #482
int_handler wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Driving a manual car isn't about efficiency. It is about driver engagement. Yes, you can row your own gears with paddle shifters, but no automatic will ever give you the same kind of engagement or connectedness with the car as a manual with three pedals will. But yes, if there is a smoking gun for the death of the manual in America, it would be our crumbling, congested roads and absurdly long daily commutes.

Have you driven one of the new automatics or an electric car? The best engagement happens when you don't have to think about what gear you're in, or plan for the downshift lag. That's true engagement! My plugin hybrid minivan with an e-cvt knocks the socks off of my old 5-speed Subaru wagon. A Minivan! (Edit) The reason why is that it takes me about a second to shift gears. A modern automatic can rev up before I'd ev…

I drive the Pacifica EV hybrid and the ride is almost flawless, except it uses the ICE when you floor the pedal which is odd since the electric has more boost in it. Can’t wait until the super capacitors become common.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ2Eo6wl5r0

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#645

Post by hfdgiutdryg »

Zombieball wrote: post #532
tlrobinson wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So does “staying in your lane” and “maintaining appropriate speed”. Adding arbitrary other things requiring focus doesn’t seem like it would help prevent accidents.

I can’t speak for others but I personally find driving a manual does help prevent accidents. Driving an automatic feels a bit mundane. Just hold the gas pedal in the same spot the whole time. It’s easy to slip into a boredom state (zone out) and not focus on the road. Even more so when tired. A manual car sort of kicks you in the butt every now and then: “hey, you’re in the wrong gear. Stay sharp, and upshift!”

This is the kind of thing I was talking about elsewhere. You need to take responsibility for maintaining mental engagement regardless of the transmission. Using a manual transmission as a crutch for mental focus is a terrible idea.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#646

Post by davewritescode »

hfdgiutdryg wrote: post #643
kaitai wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, simply in that by changing my driving style I could get 30+ miles per gallon of gas using a manual but not an automatic of the same type of car. It's interesting that people don't even know that anymore. Additionally, manual can be very useful in a snowy/icy climate -- starting into 2nd can get you going on a slippery road where some automatics will have trouble. Much more control of torque.

A modern DCT transmission doesn't use a torque converter, which is where most of the efficiency was lost. A DCT is effectively a manual transmission that's automatically operated.

Even torque converter automatics don't use torque converters for anything other than low speeds anymore. Most modern automatic transmissions have the ability to mechanically couple the input shaft directly to the transmission effectively bypassing the torque converter in most if not every gear.

It's one the of the reasons the ZF8 transmission is used in everything from the new BMW 8 series down to the Dodge Charger.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#647

Post by hfdgiutdryg »

entee wrote: post #404
dmd wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you want a choke, too?

A choke gets used once upon start, a shift happens dozens of times per drive, it's not the same thing. And no paddle replaces the sheer joy of rowing your own.

A choke gets used once upon start, a shift happens dozens of times per drive, it's not the same thing.

It's still "increasing engagement" which is what GP claimed to want. How about a persistent pull to the right in the steering? That's continuous and increases engagement. How about occasional "death wobble" as found in many Jeeps? That will really sharpen your focus and keep you engaged.

And no paddle replaces the sheer joy of rowing your own.

That's a purely subjective statement.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#648

Post by hfdgiutdryg »

city41 wrote: post #436
inferiorhuman wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, I don't at all understand this mentality that stick shift is a burden in stop and go traffic. It's a burden if you're stuck in bad traffic, if you've got a heavy clutch, or if you're crawling up a hill. Worse if you've got more than one of those compounding factors.

I do think the clutch is a factor. I've driven more "pure" sports cars and often their clutches require a lot of force. But I've never owned a car with a clutch like this. So yeah, maybe my comment was a bit naive. For me, motorcycles in traffic has been painful due to having to hold a heavy clutch in with your hand.

Just an aside, you shouldn't be holding the clutch in much. Only when coming to a stop in first gear (hold until the vehicle behind you stops so you know you won't get rear ended) and when starting to move (i.e. a few seconds before a light changes, or once traffic clears and you're planning to start moving again). You should be in neutral while stopped otherwise.

Re: How America lost its love for the stick shift

#650

Post by kalleboo »

argonaut wrote: post #606
kaitai wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, simply in that by changing my driving style I could get 30+ miles per gallon of gas using a manual but not an automatic of the same type of car. It's interesting that people don't even know that anymore. Additionally, manual can be very useful in a snowy/icy climate -- starting into 2nd can get you going on a slippery road where some automatics will have trouble. Much more control of torque.

For new cars today, though, automatics are almost always more fuel efficient.

Mechanically more fuel efficient, absolutely.

But when I still drove a manual it always felt like I was planning ahead, engine braking early at red lights (which often meant I could coast though it without completely stopping) etc, which you can't do with the lesser control on an automatic. Driving "lazily" in a manual means reducing shifting which often translates to more fuel-efficient driving. Driving lazily in an automatic is very different.

I'd love to see a study on hypermiling with auto vs manual in real-world condition. AFAIK all the efficiency numbers we have are just based on purely mechanical tests on a driving cycle on a dynamometer, and we all know what that kind of testing leads to.

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