Why Is College in America So Expensive? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#291

Post by etiennemarcel » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:58 AM UTC

kansface wrote: post #179

fzeroracer wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The free market does not work in all situations. There's a reason why our healthcare is an absolute disaster compared to any other first world country, why our college is far more expensive, why our drugs cost more etc And it ain't because of cost control. Every time we loosen the reins a bit and let the 'free market' take the wheels, we see things get a lot worse for Americans as a whole. Especially when you have gi…

> The free market does not work in all situations. Sure, but you did not enumerate a single free market. I'd wager the US healthcare industry is far and away the most regulated market in the entire world. We know that regulation protects the big players at the expense of their would be competition and drives up profits. Colleges are hardly any better, and ISPs are nearly all monopolies granted by municipalities in ex…

From a European point of view I have a hard time understanding your opinion.

In other countries, regulated/public healthcare works better and is more efficient than your system, it's hard to deny it... I don't see how doubling down on cutting regulations would solve anything.

In a way it reminds me of the gun control issue: the idea that deregulating gun ownership and carrying will make everybody safer seems so absurd from abroad... I guess it's cultural.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#292

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 6:24 AM UTC

mbrumlow wrote: post #233

kingaillas wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another solution would be to let students discharge their debit via bankruptcy. Surely you wouldn't want that terrible government distortion to the free market remain in place? This system is also near perfect as lenders would evaluate their risk and have incentives in the person being successful. This works very well, as we saw from how mortgage lenders and credit rating agencies worked 10 years ago. >let the free m…

> Another solution would be to let students discharge their debit via bankruptcy. So you are going to force loaners to loan to people that can simply discharge it? I am not sure you understand how a loan works. Somebody risk their money for the chance to get the original amount back plus some. If the institutes making loans can't recoup at what they put in then they too will also go bankrupt. And if they can't make a…

[deleted]

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#293

Post by closeparen » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 7:56 AM UTC

etiennemarcel wrote: post #291

kansface wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The free market does not work in all situations. Sure, but you did not enumerate a single free market. I'd wager the US healthcare industry is far and away the most regulated market in the entire world. We know that regulation protects the big players at the expense of their would be competition and drives up profits. Colleges are hardly any better, and ISPs are nearly all monopolies granted by municipalities in ex…

From a European point of view I have a hard time understanding your opinion. In other countries, regulated/public healthcare works better and is more efficient than your system, it's hard to deny it... I don't see how doubling down on cutting regulations would solve anything. In a way it reminds me of the gun control issue: the idea that deregulating gun ownership and carrying will make everybody safer seems so absur…

Regulating a service and providing it at public expense are completely separate concepts.

Europeans do not have cheap healthcare as a result of price controls on private medical practices (regulation), but as a result of redistribution and subsidy (spending).

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#294

Post by sytelus » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 9:47 AM UTC

TLDR;

Most of the cost can be traced back to staff, specifically non-teaching staff. With entire range of sport coaches to councelers on campus, things become expensive. Also, US has 4 different types of universities: public, private non-profit, for-profit, community schools. If you only take public universities in to account, US education system is actually more affordable than France or Canada. So there is huge variance and outliers which throws of the average.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#295

Post by alexgmcm » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 9:48 AM UTC

Gimpei wrote: post #198

I went to college in the US and then grad school in Europe and Asia and my personal impression is that you get what you pay for. Professors outside the states don't get anywhere near as much money and as a result don't provide the same level of personal level attention and guidance. For my undergraduate thesis, I saw my advisor once a week. For my PhD thesis, I saw my advisor four times a year. In the US a normal cla…

The one exam versus continuous assessment is more of a cultural thing.

As are the old Oxford terms of Michaelmas, Hilary and Trinity which are very short.

In decent universities in the UK they still have a one on one tutorial system though (Oxbridge, Durham, Exeter etc. all had it)

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#296

Post by etiennemarcel » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 9:50 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #293

etiennemarcel wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a European point of view I have a hard time understanding your opinion. In other countries, regulated/public healthcare works better and is more efficient than your system, it's hard to deny it... I don't see how doubling down on cutting regulations would solve anything. In a way it reminds me of the gun control issue: the idea that deregulating gun ownership and carrying will make everybody safer seems so absur…

Regulating a service and providing it at public expense are completely separate concepts. Europeans do not have cheap healthcare as a result of price controls on private medical practices (regulation), but as a result of redistribution and subsidy (spending).

At least in France, it's both. The cost for the patient is usually low thanks to the health insurance, but also because of price control. A GP visit is 25 euros by law, covered from 70 to 100% depending on your insurance. Doctors can choose to charge more but then patients need better private insurances to be reimbursed.

You can find the price lists here:

* https://www.ameli.fr/paris/medecin/exercice-liberal/facturat... * https://www.ameli.fr/paris/medecin/exercice-liberal/facturat...

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#297

Post by sytelus » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 9:50 AM UTC

IronWolve wrote: post #4

Many western states got together to provide a cheaper alternative to state schools. Western Governors University is about 6k a year and is online and accredited. Its also used for teachers to get their advanced degrees while working full-time jobs. You can also go as fast or slow as you can/want. You could, in theory, do it in 3 years, so 18k TOTAL, that's pretty affordable. No idea if there is an option for eastern…

Can you really get degree in nursing onlin? That sounds scary.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#298

Post by Emma_Goldman » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 9:56 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #293

etiennemarcel wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a European point of view I have a hard time understanding your opinion. In other countries, regulated/public healthcare works better and is more efficient than your system, it's hard to deny it... I don't see how doubling down on cutting regulations would solve anything. In a way it reminds me of the gun control issue: the idea that deregulating gun ownership and carrying will make everybody safer seems so absur…

Regulating a service and providing it at public expense are completely separate concepts. Europeans do not have cheap healthcare as a result of price controls on private medical practices (regulation), but as a result of redistribution and subsidy (spending).

No, the per capita cost of healthcare in the US is astronomically greater than Western European countries, including both private and public spend. In the UK the NHS is a socialised service that is free at the point of use. If that's not 'regulation' then I don't know what is.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#299

Post by Emma_Goldman » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 10:27 AM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #162

clay_the_ripper wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you explain to me how the government control of those things had lead to price increases? Specifically? I hear this a lot but have never heard an explaination and I am genuinely curious of the reasoning

"The Economy" is a (surprisingly effective!) system for allocating resources. It short-circuits a human instinct that social status and fairness should be the guide, and replaces that with "a persons economic contribution" instead. Now, it turns out that the difference in productivity between people is so great (think the old 10x-100x programmer) that allocating resources according to contribution creates so much sur…

"Everybody wins".

This is a sadistic logic. People dying because they can't afford healthcare. "Everybody wins". Living precariously from wageslip to wageslip. "Everybody wins". Internalising the toxic logic that one's worth is directly proportional to one's market value. "Everybody wins". Etcetera.

Several things:

1. If this were so it's strange how so many widely different forms of economic organisation, across the past and present - from post-war fordism in France to the state-owned enterprises in China today - have achieved remarkable levels of growth, stability and innovation. Economies are incredibly historically, sociologically and culturally varied and complex things. They cannot be reduced to a universal and parsimonious law.

2. What is of market value is not what is of social value. Even the most gooey-eyed neoclassical economist admits that a huge number of inefficiencies and distortions separate the two. Many thinkers - Rousseau, Marx, even Rawls - took them to be very far apart. A system in which the majority of people hate their job, have no bargaining power, have no say in their workplace, and are told by society that they aren't worth anything and to be grateful for the Promethean achievements of the rich, is not maximising social value. It's socially and culturally crippling.

3. You are naturalising a contingent and defeasible fact: that people need gratuitously large paychecks to have sufficient incentive to work. It's proven that above £28,000, increased income has no effect on quality of life. People want more money than that because capitalism, like any social system, functionally reproduces itself ideologically; and humans can be extraordinarily sensitive as to their social status and how others perceive them.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#300

Post by Emma_Goldman » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 10:41 AM UTC

mmirate wrote: post #248

mcguire wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the "economic contribution" of, say, the average software developer versus the average first grade teacher?

Ignoring that your average first-grade teacher is an employee of the State rather than of any kind of private entity ... ... it's a question of ephemeral facts. In a given area, companies who employ software developers, able to retain personnel who perform to those companies' subjective satisfaction, by paying them $X; and analogously for private schools in the same area it is $Y for first-grade teachers. How does $X…

You can't brush away the misvaluation of teachers by blaming the state. Education is a public good. It's something with huge social value, but that value isn't and can't be captured by the educator. That's inherent in the activity. Capitalism only values something insofar as it can be directly exploited for personal profit.