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Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

nytimes.com

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Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#361

Post by lr4444lr »

throwaway8879 wrote: post #242
peterwwillis wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We develop drugs and medical practices to artificially extend our lives. We build gigantic civilizations and trade goods around the globe. We take the coffee beans from a farmer in a poor nation undergoing drought, pay that farmer between $0.07-$0.50 per kilo of coffee, and then sell that kilo in a coffee shop (after roasting and brewing) for about $70. We aren't natural. We don't need natural evolutionary states. We…

None of that is my responsibility. I'm not obligated to help anyone but myself. Nobody asked me for consent before flinging me into existence, and now I have to follow all these rules that people make up? I don't need "unnatural, human-oriented, ethical states". I'm perfectly happy with a state where I can acquire as many resources as possible, even if that incurs a significant cost to others.

Don't you have any fear at all of suffering SOME sort of catastrophe - or someone in your family suffering one - that's too big for your resources to manage?

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#362

Post by bko »

_khau wrote: post #340
dgudkov wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you just cannot escape poverty by just working harder. This is a traditional, stereotypical belief that in order to escape poverty you have to work harder. This is old understanding of meritocracy and it's no longer valid. The new meritocracy is that you have to learn harder. And now, given all the learning resources available for free on the internet (which is also very accessible nowadays) it's probably the best t…

Learning costs money, especially as an adult. You still need to cover your basic expenses, homeless or not.

Learning is not just formal education. Learning costs much less money today than it probably ever has. Practically everyone in the US has the access of all the world's collective information.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#363

Post by mch82 »

throwaway8879 wrote: post #268
throwaway77384 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And not sharing them doesn't either. You still haven't made a point. Is the intelligent action the action that is most likely to benefit the group? Is a group of 20 fed dogs stronger than a group of 20 dogs where one goes hungry and becomes a weak or unstable element? Seems like you're just trying to somehow rally against equality and/or sharing, by associating them with naivité, like you have some knowledge others d…

I'm not trying to make a point or rallying against anything. I'm simply saying that I work hard to acquire resources for myself and will never give them away. We can all make moral/ethical/humane arguments about equality and fairness but I simply don't care. If that makes me unintelligent, then I suppose that's just something I'll have to accept.

So you choose the suboptimal box in the prisoners’ dilemma?

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#364

Post by grecy »

bshoemaker wrote: post #236
blacksoil wrote: post #141

The lady in the example is 33 has a diabetes, 3 kids to support, and presumably also have to support for her disabled mother. To make the matter even more sad she had no higher level education. I can imagine how hard and tough it is for her. But I don't think raising the minimum wage or a mandated salary increase/promotion is the real solution here. The real solutions would be to: 1. Educate parents on the importance…

The US is not a developing country, it's the most wealthy country in the world. This comparison does not seem useful.

While the US is technically listed as a "Developed country", and is of course the most wealthy country in the world, that wealth does not extend to a majority of it's citizens.

In fact, the US is at or very near the worst among OECD countries in all of the following, and is much closer to Developing countries than Developed countries: infant mortality, child poverty, child health and safety, life expectancy at birth, healthy life expectancy, rate of obesity, disability-adjusted life years, doctors per 1000 people, deaths from treatable conditions, rate of mental health disorders, rate of drug abuse, rate of prescription drug use, incarceration rate, rate of assaults, rate of homicides, income inequality, wealth inequality, and economic mobility. [1]

[1] https://stats.oecd.org/

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#365

Post by lr4444lr »

noobermin wrote: post #18

It's not like meritocracy is completely unrelated to real life, it matters in a certain regime. However, if like Vanessa, you're born to lesser circumstances, you just cannot escape poverty by just working harder. Similarly, if you are born to very well off standards, even if you're a dope and spend money from Dad's inheritance on cocaine, sure, you won't be successful but you'll still have a net of some kind. You ca…

The diabetic Vanessa could have chosen not to have her first baby at 16.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#366

Post by sheepmullet »

Joeri wrote: post #69
dgut wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they? By how much? Immigrants have usually low wages. Anyways, in Western Europe, the increased demand (which is probably smaller than in the US), those things are easily canceled by the added costs to public healthcare + social benefits.

In belgium the rising healthcare cost is almost entirely due to an aging population. To take care of those elderly you need nurses and care workers, 46000 extra per year for the coming decade. Meanwhile the schools only graduate 5000 per year, due to lack of interest by the native population because of the odd hours in nursing. The only way they’ve found to bridge the gap and take care of the elderly is bringing over…

> due to lack of interest by the native population because of the odd hours in nursing.

Or more likely because the pay is not enough to interest the locals.

How does the pay for a nurse compare to a programmer? 2x as much? 3x?

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#367

Post by jmickey »

anovikov wrote: post #280
jmickey wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me your policy would lead to the creation of permanent two-class society, where moving between the classes is difficult. Besides, do you really want to live in a fortress segregated from the rest of the society? Why not invest money in education, training and a social security net that gives poorer individuals the means and space to catapult themselves into wealth?

Education - sure. The only purpose these masses can serve is acting as genetic pool for picking the best and uplift them through education. A permanent caste-like system is doomed as next generation of it won't be as performing as the previous one. But we have to understand that only a small majority - a few percent - of the poor will be uplifted. The rest has to be kept at bay in one way or the other. As for fortres…

But what is your end goal? What purpose does this caste system serve?

History has shown that once people no longer believe they have a fair chance of achieving prosperity, they revolt. So, even ignoring any other characteristics, your way of social organisation is not stable in the long run.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#368

Post by bko »

blacksoil wrote: post #141

The lady in the example is 33 has a diabetes, 3 kids to support, and presumably also have to support for her disabled mother. To make the matter even more sad she had no higher level education. I can imagine how hard and tough it is for her. But I don't think raising the minimum wage or a mandated salary increase/promotion is the real solution here. The real solutions would be to: 1. Educate parents on the importance…

> 1. Educate parents on the importance of children education

I'm not sure most parents, Vanessa included, don't know that education is important to their children's future. She likely lacks the opportunity to send her children to a school where they would receive a good education.

> 2. Educate people to not have kids before they're financially and emotionally ready.

I would argue that most people look at having children in terms of opportunity cost. If you're wealthy and have a good career, you tend to put off having children or have fewer children. That's why the birth rate is so low in developed countries compared to that of the developing world.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#369

Post by lr4444lr »

acchow wrote: post #40
tosser00001 wrote: post #14

Wage growth would help, but for some reason, these articles never even mention immigration. The scale of immigration both legal and illegal I believe has the greatest impact on the lowest sectors of society. The lack of discussion on the impact so many potential new workers is having on wage growth leads one to think they believe labor cost is the one thing immune to the law of supply and demand.

You're ignoring the demand side. Immigrants also increase demand. For everything.

... including social services.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#370

Post by zimablue »

blacksoil wrote: post #141

The lady in the example is 33 has a diabetes, 3 kids to support, and presumably also have to support for her disabled mother. To make the matter even more sad she had no higher level education. I can imagine how hard and tough it is for her. But I don't think raising the minimum wage or a mandated salary increase/promotion is the real solution here. The real solutions would be to: 1. Educate parents on the importance…

This is just social darwinist moralising imo. If you're going to really prescribe that as a solution, can you point to cases where "telling poor people not to have kids" has proven effective to improve society? Even if it is effective, it's still sickening to me, the idea that you should only have kids if you either inherit money or you're lucky enough to climb out of poverty. If population control ever becomes necessary in the west it has to be by random ballot not privilege.
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