Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 632 posts

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#191

Post by icu »

AgentME wrote: post #140
icu wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can actually hold for immigration to some degree. For example, while not exactly doubling, the entry of women into the workforce after WWII had a similar effect of massively increasing the the supply of labour. You would think that two income earners in a household would increase the economy enough that wages would need to rise due to a subsequent shortage of labor... but it did not. Wages, in real terms, have lar…

One difference between adding women to the workforce and adding immigrants is that women were already customers of the economy. Women working increased the pool of workers but not the pool of customers. Immigrants would add to both.

Yeah my point was that, at the margin, the increase in labor would have more of a downward impact on the price equilibrium of wages than it would (eventually) have in an upward way.

The argument I am arguing against is something like:

Immigrants join the labor force -> They increase the economy -> The increase in the economy increases jobs -> More jobs increase wages.

I think this what you are essentially saying?

The problem here is inflation and productivity. In order for everyone to prosper either:

1. There is no inflation and therefore purchasing power is maintained, or

2. Wage growth and interest rates outpace inflation.

No. 1 will not happen under our current monetary system, and no. 2 has not happened due to:

a) Competition in the labor market has keep real wage growth flat, and

b) The unprecedented (in the history of mankind) money creation (AKA Quantitative Easing) used to bail out financial institutions has destroyed interest rates and created a massive inflation in asset prices.

Another factor is that different jobs impact the economy differently. Or put another way, different jobs create different levels of 'value' in society (the monetary kind not moral kind). The difference between the price of a good or service, and the perceived value of a good or service is the 'consumer surplus'.

Fact is, highly skilled immigration is going to create a higher level of consumer surplus compared to low skilled immigration. Highly skilled immigration in areas where there are shortages is going to also have a bigger impact on economic growth.

I think you will be hard pressed to find anyone arguing against this sort of immigration... the issue that dare not be spoken is the impact low skilled and illegal immigration has on the labor market.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#192

Post by sintaxi »

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #170

America is a country of huge wealth. Wealthy in natural resources, capital equipment, labor ... fucking everything. And yet we have such terrible poverty. When I read stories about poor people in America, always there is lurking just below the surface the key element of scarcity. Not food. Not transportation. Not clothing. Not even, surprisingly, health care. The missing factor in all these broken lives is the simple…

> Why hasn't the market solved this problem?

The market did solve the problem and then we blew it by undermining the family unit so we have people dependent on the state with no significant family support.

> Believe it or not, its not impossible to manufacture a living space in a factory and assemble it on site in a day, to provide extremely well made and affordable housing structures.

The soviets tried this approach it doesn't work because you end up with a shitload of crappy communist housing blocks. The correct approach is to develop as much high end housing as possible which pushes all other houses down the depth chart. We want the poor living in houses that the rich used to own - not shittier houses.

At some point we have to realize that the issue isn't wealth or even inequality. The harsh reality is a significant number of the population has a several hundred dollar a day drug addiction and no means of taking care of themselves even if they were handed a blank check.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#193

Post by acchow »

marnett wrote: post #71
oh_sigh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is poverty in noncapitalist countries a result of?

American embargoes

This ignores the Soviet Union and all of it's allies, which did trade amongst themselves but failed regardless.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#194

Post by toofy »

DrJones1098 wrote: post #15

The big questions is automation/A.I. What about when jobs become more and more automated? What about when 2 million truck drivers are put out of work due to self-driving vehicles? Food preparation, Cleaning, Driving, Construction, Science...all of these fields are threatened by automation. Sure there will always be a few jobs to run the machines but what happens as A.I. and Automation take over and we have 80% unempl…

> What's the next stage of society?

Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism, duh.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#195

Post by throwaway8879 »

ojii wrote: post #189
TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #170

America is a country of huge wealth. Wealthy in natural resources, capital equipment, labor ... fucking everything. And yet we have such terrible poverty. When I read stories about poor people in America, always there is lurking just below the surface the key element of scarcity. Not food. Not transportation. Not clothing. Not even, surprisingly, health care. The missing factor in all these broken lives is the simple…

> Why hasn't the market solved this problem? Maybe "the market" is not a good tool to solve inequality.

Solving inequality goes against everything in nature. The market is as close to an evolutionary natural state as we can get.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#196

Post by radoslawc »

> Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not.

But not having 3 kids when you cannot afford having them might be. That is the issue nobody likes to address. For driving a car you have to have driving license, for owning a gun you have to have some kind of permit, to made new human being you can just go ahead. No matter if you can raise it. Would she be better of not having them? Might be, but certainly those kids won't be advancing social ladder, but rather emulating what they see at home: making kids and living on welfare/foodstamps. Key is not giving away tax money from hard working people away, but providing education (also in context that your choices have consequences).

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#197

Post by throwaway8879 »

coldtea wrote: post #179
neilwilson wrote: post #148

If there are only 19 bones for every 20 dogs, then it doesn't matter how good a bone hunter they all are there will always be one dog disappointed and the other 19 will be grateful for the bone no matter how thin and weedy it is. Systemically the 'interest rate targeting' approach starts to tighten up policy when unemployment gets below 5% - which they consider 'full employment' even though 1 in 20 haven't got jobs.…

> If there are only 19 bones for every 20 dogs, then it doesn't matter how good a bone hunter they all are there will always be one dog disappointed and the other 19 will be grateful for the bone no matter how thin and weedy it is. Or, if the dogs are intelligent, they could split those 19 bones to 20 pieces...

That wouldn't make them intelligent at all. This idea that there should always be fairness and equality in existence is very naive.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#198

Post by toofy »

apatters wrote: post #68
brickcitymang wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I don't deny this nature in myself

It seems like you're lamenting what is basically an immutable biological trait without proposing any solutions. I don't think this adds much to the discussion.

> ... without proposing any solutions...

While I don't necessarily agree with everything the poster is saying--implying that someone is only allowed to discuss topics in which they have a readily available solution would likely ruin most discussion on the internet and it would certainly put a damper on scientific work the world over.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#199

Post by BlackFly »

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #170

America is a country of huge wealth. Wealthy in natural resources, capital equipment, labor ... fucking everything. And yet we have such terrible poverty. When I read stories about poor people in America, always there is lurking just below the surface the key element of scarcity. Not food. Not transportation. Not clothing. Not even, surprisingly, health care. The missing factor in all these broken lives is the simple…

> Why hasn't the market solved this problem?

Well my elementary knowledge of economics suggests that the market equilibrium price is the intersection of the supply and demand curves. There is additional demand but at a price lower than can be supplied. It is not profitable to supply housing further, and some demand is not met. This will always be the case (according to my elementary understanding of economics).

That is where socialism comes in in most countries. Since profit motive cannot solve this problem, compassion motive can. Supplying low cost housing without disrupting the rest of the real estate market is managed in a variety of fashions in different countries to greater or lesser success.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#200

Post by apatters »

3x wrote: post #131
apatters wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like you're lamenting what is basically an immutable biological trait without proposing any solutions. I don't think this adds much to the discussion.

> immutable biological trait So now your two SUVs and white McMansion with a picket fence are an "immutable biological trait"?

Please try to be charitable, not adversarial, toward the counterparties in a discussion on HN. I will try to do the same.

I was characterizing what the parent appeared to be saying, so that I could discuss it (that greed is a part of human nature). I was not justifying greed.

I rent an apartment and I don't own a car.

Post reply on HN