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Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

nytimes.com

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Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#111

Post by badminton1 »

tosser00001 wrote: post #14

Wage growth would help, but for some reason, these articles never even mention immigration. The scale of immigration both legal and illegal I believe has the greatest impact on the lowest sectors of society. The lack of discussion on the impact so many potential new workers is having on wage growth leads one to think they believe labor cost is the one thing immune to the law of supply and demand.

The cost of one AGM-114 Hellfire missile is $100,000+. Most likely they will be used to blow up some random guy in the middle east for no reason.

The cost of a 1 liter water bag at a hospital is $500.

Walmart evaded $70+ billion dollars in tax. They made that money by keeping all their workforce on medicaid.

That's where you money is going to, not $6 an hour fruit pickers spending all their money in food.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#112

Post by nitwit005 »

acchow wrote: post #40
tosser00001 wrote: post #14

Wage growth would help, but for some reason, these articles never even mention immigration. The scale of immigration both legal and illegal I believe has the greatest impact on the lowest sectors of society. The lack of discussion on the impact so many potential new workers is having on wage growth leads one to think they believe labor cost is the one thing immune to the law of supply and demand.

You're ignoring the demand side. Immigrants also increase demand. For everything.

Imagine an extremely simplified model where all immigrants to a city are experienced taxi drivers. There's more demand for goods, but probably only a small uptick in demand for taxis. The supply of available taxi drivers has gone way up however.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#113

Post by fzeroracer »

mrpopo wrote: post #105
xivzgrev wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry to hear about your parents. However I don't know what your point is. On one hand you say your hard work and focus on future got you out of poverty. Then you say your parents are an example of where hard work and grit are NOT all you need. Honestly it sounds like you were born with a certain amount of intelligence, got some money to go to college, and you made the most of it. But where would you be if you ha…

> On one hand you say your hard work and focus on future got you out of poverty. I think that was just to add to the shock factor. The point was that his hard work would not have taken him anywhere, were it not for the money brought by his father's accident lawsuit.

Yes, this. My parents had very little to no ability to save money due to dealing with basic survival plus raising me. Had my father not passed away, they likely would not have saved any sort of money to support a college fund.

A fair amount of that money went to support my family because by that time my mother and my step father (also a fisherman) were disabled as a result of their job and practically unable to work. It was through that money plus the aid I got from FAFSA that allowed me to get through college and support my parents, though I had to make many other health sacrifices along the way.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#114

Post by fzeroracer »

marnett wrote: post #108
fzeroracer wrote: post #79

I broke out of poverty. Why can't they do it too? It was a simple thing for me, a combination of studying hard, focusing on my future and the death of my father. You see, my parents were both fishermen. It's a grueling, painful job that can destroy your body as you age leaving you with back problems and forcing you to retire early. It also paid poorly and had a lot of risks. Which unfortunately for us, resulted in th…

i can't tell if you actually think it is simple or not. you and your mother are fortunate for that professional class lawyer who worked pro-bono for no material gain whatsoever.

My point was that none of it was simple. There are many other poor Americans that have had issues pop up like this but are unable to afford or find lawyers to represent them in court. You're absolutely correct that we're lucky that not only did we win the suit but that the lawyer took on the case.

Other people aren't as lucky.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#115

Post by will4274 »

bsder wrote: post #74
skookumchuck wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the meritocratic myth I've been around to see people over decades, and how their decisions affect their lives. Meritocracy is not a myth. Where people wind up is very much a consequence of their choices. This isn't the Soviet Union where one is assigned a career, a job and an apartment. I've seen immigrants arrive here with nothing and become millionaires. That's why everyone wants to come to America. The opportuni…

> Where people wind up is very much a consequence of their choices. True. But we also have lots of studies showing that the best of the lowest socioeconomic class almost never do better than the laziest of the uppermost socioeconomic class.

> we also have lots of studies showing that the best of the lowest socioeconomic class almost never do better than the laziest of the uppermost socioeconomic class.

Could you point me to one? I've seen a number of studies on averages, and anecdotally, this contradicts my experience, so I'd be interested in whatever data you're referring to.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#116

Post by darawk »

whatever1 wrote: post #38
whatever1 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Facebook doing in capitalist China?

Also, in which textbook is it stated that capitalism requires joint ventures of the government with every multinational company that tries to operate whithin its borders?

They're not fully capitalist. Their economic success began when they started their slow conversion to capitalism, and has proceeded in lockstep with their loosening of economic regulation. This is not a co-incidence.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#117

Post by lasagnaphil »

skookumchuck wrote: post #63
brickcitymang wrote: post #2

Poverty in America is a result of American capitalism, at a very high level. At a very very high level, it is caused by human greed, and a lack of love for our neighbors. We can talk about wages and employment rates, and race all day long, but those are just details. It's human greed in the end, and our inability to love others like we love ourselves.

The US went from subsistence farming in 1800 to superpower a hundred years later. Nearly the entire population that made up the US arrived penniless, and moved up into the middle class and higher. To say that American capitalism somehow "caused" poverty is contrary to about every statistic.

And those people were able to rise by hurting the natives originally living there... no free lunch theorem strikes again

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#118

Post by killjoywashere »

xivzgrev wrote: post #90
fzeroracer wrote: post #79

I broke out of poverty. Why can't they do it too? It was a simple thing for me, a combination of studying hard, focusing on my future and the death of my father. You see, my parents were both fishermen. It's a grueling, painful job that can destroy your body as you age leaving you with back problems and forcing you to retire early. It also paid poorly and had a lot of risks. Which unfortunately for us, resulted in th…

I'm sorry to hear about your parents. However I don't know what your point is. On one hand you say your hard work and focus on future got you out of poverty. Then you say your parents are an example of where hard work and grit are NOT all you need. Honestly it sounds like you were born with a certain amount of intelligence, got some money to go to college, and you made the most of it. But where would you be if you ha…

Play his role without the death of his father and incidental lawyer willing to work pro-bono (or, I suspect, on commission): would his hard work have gotten him anywhere besides an early grave? Having been to sea, I can personally say that I seriously doubt he would have gotten much further than his father. Born as grist for the mill.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#119

Post by apatters »

bobwaycott wrote: post #27
whb07 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't care or need to love you. But I do love my family and myself. So if I need to put on a smile and provide a service or good to you for money to help the people I love I will do it. That's the point of capitalism and free markets. "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves not to their…

Ah, the old trope of trotting out Adam Smith. It may surprise you to know Smith was concerned about unfettered self-interest and the ways it would damage society. He wasn’t lauding self-interest and praising it as the perfection capitalism claims it to be. Why not include some more of his gems? Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the r…

I don't see anything in the parent's comment indicating that he supports unfettered self-interest.

As far as I can tell almost everyone nowadays supports the idea of having markets which are partially free, but subject to some regulation (which was Smith's position). Hardcore Rand and Marx devotees are on the fringe. We are all just debating the degree and character of the regulation.

We debate within Smith's world because he was right and it's easy to see, free markets tend to produce big winners who have so much wealth and power that they eventually find a way to corrupt the market. Regulation should focus on this basic problem: there's no great social upside to a $100B company becoming an $200B company, whereas there's lots of social upside to promoting lots of competition, small firms, and a sense of fairness so that everyone can pursue their self-interest.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#120

Post by SlowRobotAhead »

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #34
sdinsn wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that legal immigration has the greatest impact on higher sectors of society- such as salaries in software / IT. This can be fixed by raising the minimum pay for H1Bs. I'd believe that illegal immigration has a incredibly small effect overall.

The illegals are all picking strawberries for below minimum wage so we don't have the bear the true costs of our food. Remove them and there would be serious repercussions for those at the lower strata of society.

So you’re saying those illegals are basically slaves? Wouldn’t the ethical thing to prevent illegal immigration into the country knowing that these people may be abused?
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