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Why Is College in America So Expensive?

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Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#191

Post by throwawayjava »

bitwize wrote: post #142

Unless you have a full-ride scholarship, go to pleb-tier state school. If you are studying a STEM field you'll have to learn the exact same math and science as the Harvard and Stanford grads, but you'll do it for far cheaper if you attend a public university in your state of residence. If you want to do a postgrad program, don't worry: top tier schools will come sniffing if you're good enough, no matter where you're…

> Unless you have a full-ride scholarship, go to pleb-tier state school. If you are studying a STEM field you'll have to learn the exact same math and science as the Harvard and Stanford grads

I went to a "pleb-tier" [1] school for undergrad and then to a top-tier university for grad school.

It's just not true. There is a huge difference in the quality of education, especially in STEM fields. And most especially in Math. "pleb-tier" schools will get through everything in Harvard's Math 55 if they're lucky. Not even exaggerating -- the first year at Harvard covers what you'll get in four years of honors track at a "pleb-tier" place.

And then there's the recruitment pipeline. Coming out of top-tier school I had multiple 300k-500k offers without even applying for any jobs. Out of pleb-tier school, I wasn't getting anything over 80k and that was with lots of networking. CS and Math are two of the rare fields where phd school has, IME, a positive expected value, as long as you're substantially trading up credentials.

IMO the optimal route is as follows (at least in STEM):

* Is your state flagship within a 1 hour drive and top-10 in your field? If so, that option is a complete no-brainer.

* 3/4+-ride to a top 10 place outside of commuting distance, or a 1/2 ride to a top 10 place within commuting distance? Again, no brainer.

* Otherwise, the calculus becomes harder. Your best bet is probably to aim for a PhD at a tippy top school (top 5 or so), but getting into tippy top phd program from a "pleb-tier" is not nearly as easy and you're making it out to be... especially in older/more saturated fields like Math.

--

[1] FWIW I don't like this terminology but... whatever.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#194

Post by dnomad »

chimeracoder wrote: post #184
dnomad wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they don't. Where do you even come up with such obvious nonsense?

> No they don't. Where do you even come up with such obvious nonsense? The numbers are right there on Wikipedia. Maybe look them up before you call it "obvious nonsense".

It's obvious nonsense to anybody who's taken even a moment to understand what those numbers mean.

Here's a very, very simple chart that shows population with tertiary education [1]. The US is not significantly above other countries where education is paid for by the government.

What's more is that those numbers are very generous to the US because, as everybody knows, most private colleges in the US are shit. So called "non-selective schools" as well as the straight up for-profits and the religious schools will take anybody that applies and hand them a degree in 2-4 years.

Like much of the nonsense about free markets etc in this thread there's little understanding of actual facts. The American education situation exactly parallels healthcare: other OECD countries are able to provide better service for less cost by having the government direct the resources. But, yes, somehow we need to get the government out of education. That will surely fix everything.

(Though serious people know full well what will happen if the government stops funding higher education. Graduation rates will plummet and within a generation advanced education will abandon middle America. The rich, highly educated coasts will do just fine. The real question is, as always, whether the ideologues are committed enough to cut their children throats in the name of their god, the free market. Then again we already see rapidly decreasing graduation rates in America [2] and the increasing prevalence for worthless degrees from shitty schools so I guess we already know the answer that one.)

[1] https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-educat...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decreasing_graduation_completi...

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#195

Post by quiq »

fouc wrote: post #186

College is expensive because people still pay that price. People pay that price because they have easy access to student loans. So if we get rid of student loans, colleges would be forced to change their pricing. If governments still want to encourage students to go to college, then perhaps non-price based methods would help. Scholarships could move away from being a monetary amount, to being a fixed amount of semest…

Naively, wouldn't a blank check for a semester ecourage universities to raise prices even higher?

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#196

Post by mr_tristan »

> Still, the return varies wildly depending on the college one attends. One in four college grads earns no more than the average high-school graduate.

I found this shocking: 25% of _graduates_ are in a significantly worse financial position after college? They're not only getting zero monetary benefit for their degree, they've forgone 4 years of experience. And I'd bet that most of them are adding significant student debt on top of this.

I'd be curious how _that_ number compares internationally.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#197

Post by madengr »

bhupy wrote: post #119
fzeroracer wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see a statistic or actual citation there other than an issue with potentially out of date laws. How are you quantifying American Healthcare as being one of the least free markets? And how does it compare to other countries? I don't see anyone ever actually quantify how 'free' a market is; people only ever argue that if a market is not working therefore it's not free enough, which means we must make it free. A…

Sure - in America, healthcare is far from a free market because: 1) We don’t pay our own healthcare bills, we pay for our healthcare through insurance. As a result, there isn’t a pricing system in place, much like there is for other critical goods and services with price-inelastic demand like food and housing. This is caused by regulations that require employers to provide health insurance for their employees, and mo…

I have a high deductible plan where I’m liable for the first $5k. That didn’t reduce any costs, nor can I get a price to shop around.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#198

Post by Gimpei »

I went to college in the US and then grad school in Europe and Asia and my personal impression is that you get what you pay for. Professors outside the states don't get anywhere near as much money and as a result don't provide the same level of personal level attention and guidance. For my undergraduate thesis, I saw my advisor once a week. For my PhD thesis, I saw my advisor four times a year. In the US a normal class had around 3-4 hours of lectures a week, plus continuous assessment, and ran from September to June. In the UK, where I did my PhD, it was 2-3 hours a week, one test at the end of the year, and classes started in October and ended in March. I didn't realize how good I had it in the states until I left. If you can afford it, it's awesome.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#199

Post by [deleted] »

tobmlt wrote: post #167
fzeroracer wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I asked for an actual quantifier of how much of a 'free market' something is. That's the whole crux of my debate: In attempt to make something more of a 'free market' we cut regulations, which ends up hurting people and which companies take advantage of. Then prices go up, we assume the free market is not free enough, so we cut more regulations. Repeat until people are dying. A great example of such an issue is one w…

When you say: "we cut regulations, which ends up hurting people and which companies take advantage of" Think of this: Companies take advantage when no other company is around to out compete them. This is why it's so important not to erect high barriers to entry around a market. Instead, we have a lack of competition in health care in detail, throughout the whole industry. The reasons have to do with history. Its more…

[deleted]

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#200

Post by quiq »

ergothus wrote: post #17
Domenic_S wrote: post #3

I didn't see this discussed in the article, but IMO the main driver is the availability of student loans. When the government guarantees loans, you can lend whatever you want! The price of a TRIPLE occupancy dorm + 7 day meal access is $14,813.29/YEAR at UC Davis. The "meals", if they haven't changed in the last decade, are Sodexo garbage. And don't forget a "year" doesn't count the summer, or winter break.

Id' be careful in assuming meals haven't changed in the last decade. Mass-food options aren't great, but on other campuses I've visited I've been jealous enough to wish I was eating there semi-regularly.

I worked at a dining hall at a state university all 4 years, just graduated this spring. Some food was really good, some was mediocre, never inedible. If the hot line didn't have anything good there were always well stocked sandwich/salad bars and flat top grills open to students. I definitely ate better then than I do now.

As far as pricing went, it worked out to about $9/meal. Kind of high, but also unlimited spinach/quinoa/berries/fruits/yogurts vs. burgers and panda express.

I heard they nerfed some of the benefits, but as a "student supervisor" I got $9/hr and 15 meals/week for working 15 hours/week.

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