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Why Is College in America So Expensive?

theatlantic.com

161–170 of 348 posts

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Limit the federal education loan guarantee to 15k per year. > Presto. Watch education prices drop like a rock Why would raising the limit have that effect? The limit for federally guaranteed loans (which are also, for nearly a decade, exclusively federal direct loans) is already $57,500 total for undergraduate education, and the maximim per year limit (it is lower for dependent students) is $9,500 for first-year st…

Thanks for the correction. Is there not some kind of government guarantee underlying the massive student loans the press runs stories about? I thought that student debt was in a special class, where it could not be easily discharged (and was backed by government guarantees).

> Is there not some kind of government guarantee underlying the massive student loans the press runs stories about?

Yes, the vast majority of that is federal debt or federally-guaranteed debt originating before the issuance of federally-guaranteed debt was restricted tomthe federal government, but the $15k annual limit proposed is above the limit for such debt.

> I thought that student debt was in a special class, where it could not be easily discharged

There is a higher bar for discharging student debt than other unsecured debt in bankruptcy, yes.

But debt subject to that but not subject to the limit on federally guaranteed loans isn't a big share of the problem (nonfederal private student loan debt is less than 5% of outstanding student debt—$64 billion compared to $1.5 trillion in federal/federally-guaranteed student loan debt [0]), so there's not a lot of reason to believe a policy change that would limit the applicability of the restriction against discharge to a level higher than the limit on federally guaranteed loans would have a noticeable effect on the overall problem. It would further push private lenders out of the student loan market, but they aren't a big factor anyway.

> (and was backed by government guarantees).

Yes, most student debt is backed by government guarantees, but isn't in excess of $15k/student-year for undergraduate education.

[0] https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/student-loans/student-...

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting to me that the three areas main areas in America that have become exponentially more expensive are healthcare, construction, and education. It's curious that they have the most government control.

Could you explain to me how the government control of those things had lead to price increases? Specifically? I hear this a lot but have never heard an explaination and I am genuinely curious of the reasoning

"The Economy" is a (surprisingly effective!) system for allocating resources. It short-circuits a human instinct that social status and fairness should be the guide, and replaces that with "a persons economic contribution" instead.

Now, it turns out that the difference in productivity between people is so great (think the old 10x-100x programmer) that allocating resources according to contribution creates so much surplus stuff that everybody wins, even the unproductive. And, as a side benefit, everyone has an incentive to be productive.

The flip side is that Government is made up of ordinary people who often ask "what about fairness and status?", and likes to interfere to reallocate from productive people to unproductive people. In mild cases you get a healthy level of support for the disadvantaged, in extreme cases you get Venezuela. But in all cases, since the productive people are given less, they create less and there is less available to distribute. In theory this triggers the laws of supply-and-demand, reduces supply and prices increase.

The flip side is if the productive people consume their wealth instead of producing with it then we probably could tax them without any ill effects, but I think that is rarer than most people think.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing the poster is actually proposing changes that would allow the portion of student loan debt above 15k per year to be dischargeable in bankruptcy.

More or less. I actually think that the debt above 15k (or whatever) should be shifted back to the school, should the graduate be (provably) unable to pay it back in 10 years. ;)

> I actually think that the debt above 15k (or whatever) should be shifted back to the school

Shifted back to the school, not the lender? Or are you assuming that the school is the lender?

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#164

I remember when I graduated state tuition, I had a full ride scholarship through state tuition. By the time I graduated my tuition funding got cut in half due to lack of government funding. I worked 3 jobs and only had to pay for living expenses / textbooks. I checked recently my local University (the biggest one in the country, top 50 in many majors) charges $1000 per 3 semester hours(1 course). If you were to trans…

I would kill for a chance to study physics at Göttingen.

Is it really better than some AAA college in the US?

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The free market does not work in all situations. There's a reason why our healthcare is an absolute disaster compared to any other first world country, why our college is far more expensive, why our drugs cost more etc And it ain't because of cost control. Every time we loosen the reins a bit and let the 'free market' take the wheels, we see things get a lot worse for Americans as a whole. Especially when you have gi…

It is interesting to me that the three areas main areas in America that have become exponentially more expensive are healthcare, construction, and education. It's curious that they have the most government control.

How is this not explained by correlation? It makes sense that important things are both expensive and regulated.

Besides, isn't this terribly cherry picked? Sewage is a government issue and you don't talk about runaway costs there.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#166
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure - in America, healthcare is far from a free market because: 1) We don’t pay our own healthcare bills, we pay for our healthcare through insurance. As a result, there isn’t a pricing system in place, much like there is for other critical goods and services with price-inelastic demand like food and housing. This is caused by regulations that require employers to provide health insurance for their employees, and mo…

I asked for an actual quantifier of how much of a 'free market' something is. That's the whole crux of my debate: In attempt to make something more of a 'free market' we cut regulations, which ends up hurting people and which companies take advantage of. Then prices go up, we assume the free market is not free enough, so we cut more regulations. Repeat until people are dying. A great example of such an issue is one w…

Singapore’s public option is for poor people. We have that also, it’s called Medicaid.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#167
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure - in America, healthcare is far from a free market because: 1) We don’t pay our own healthcare bills, we pay for our healthcare through insurance. As a result, there isn’t a pricing system in place, much like there is for other critical goods and services with price-inelastic demand like food and housing. This is caused by regulations that require employers to provide health insurance for their employees, and mo…

I asked for an actual quantifier of how much of a 'free market' something is. That's the whole crux of my debate: In attempt to make something more of a 'free market' we cut regulations, which ends up hurting people and which companies take advantage of. Then prices go up, we assume the free market is not free enough, so we cut more regulations. Repeat until people are dying. A great example of such an issue is one w…

When you say: "we cut regulations, which ends up hurting people and which companies take advantage of"

Think of this: Companies take advantage when no other company is around to out compete them. This is why it's so important not to erect high barriers to entry around a market.

Instead, we have a lack of competition in health care in detail, throughout the whole industry. The reasons have to do with history. Its more important to see the general principles first.

Principle: If you would like to regulate a market to "fix" something about it, there will be down stream ramifications that will later necessitate the regulating of something else - as various entities react to the original regulation so as to maximize their own well being.

Case in point: price and wage controls in WW2 induced companies to start adding incentives instead of salary raises for workers. Which incentives? Health insurance was a big one. Companies needed to step up production. The government errected wage controls "for the war effort" - so companies enticed employees to work more via other means.

Immediate consequence: Separation of payer and receiver of healthcare services. (I am assuming this is clear enough - the insurance pays for the service, the sick person receives the service, the doctor or other provider provides the service. Now there are 3 actors where before there were 2)

Long term effect: Healthcare is expensive because the person receiving the service and the entity paying for it have been separated since the widespread adoption of health insurance "for everything" in the later 20th century. This distorts the perceived costs, allowing health care provider to increase costs without driving down demand directly. Instead, the insurance company is on the hook, and "I" can go to the doctor with greater frequency without commensurate increase in my expenditures. Cue the expansion of the healthcare industry, and a general rise in the _price_ of health care over time.

Long_term_response: health insurance companies hedge their bets and get into bed with "big medicine" and "big pharma". The health care industrial complex is born.

Longer_term_response: Long term rising costs finally induce broad measures to reduce the quality of service and make it more difficult to obtain service. Doctors are exchanged for nurse practitioners. Large companies make their health plans less and less attractive every year. The health care market enters a malaise.*

Summary thesis: Without clear price signals, a market becomes more and more distorted over time. People looking at "a snapshot" in time see a malfunctioning market, and ask for more regulation since "clearly, something is wrong". This tends to induce further distortions, and further calls for top down fixes. The few (the industry titans, and the doctors) benefit at the expense of the many in this system. To unwind this system, there is great risk of making things worse, as predatory situations will appear as the regulations are relaxed in an environment that has been specially adapted for them - people are vulnerable since the market is not functioning and a regulatory decrease is an exogenous step.

Importantly, It's not that I, or free market people in general don't sympathize with people caught up in this situation. (We are caught up in it too! Most people are not tycoons) The (a) problem is that free market people sometimes call for immediate cuts in regulation - which are quite often unsafe. A general understanding of the situation is needed. -What is needed is a free market system, but a return to that system must be done in a smooth and safe manner. Unfortunately politicians have no incentive to pave the way to this in dollars. Instead, "the right" will cut regulation where it aids the medico-industrial complex, while quietly ensuring their asses are covered and their regulatory capture will reamin quasi-permanent, and the left will regulate to "fix that via a safety net for those on the bottom". In the end, the high and mighty will continue winning, since the tycoons are safe thanks to regulatory capture, especially with the masses placated with a safety net. And the malaise will only grow worse, and more confusing.

Side points: -Some responses might be perceived as bad or good, but they are just responses - intelligent actors responding to a situation. In any economic situation, action and reaction, history and future - all must be considered in order to pass an intelligent value judgement. Hasty proclamations motivated by emotion are likely to miss important aspects of an economic trajectory - of economic dynamics.

-There is a duality in your argument, as in all things in economics. If you don't see this, then the politicians will have you.

-About the call for a "an actual quantifier of how much of a 'free market' something is": What kind of quantifier do you want? An objective measure? But surely you must know that any particular measure must be invariant to various kinds of hidden change in order to be objective - and nobody knows how to produce an economic measure that is really objective. This is why econometrics contains so much bickering over ad-hoc modeling and so many statistically based papers (across empirical fields which measure human subjects) have results that are hard to re-produce. I am sure some clever quantifiers have been invented, but when you do not even know the basic interplay of the dynamics, over-focus on some number -even if it is a good measure- is not helpful - since you cannot understand how good it really is unless you have the underlying processes well understood. If you argue that a different process is actually more important, then perhaps your "good number" may actually be bad.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#168

I didn't see this discussed in the article, but IMO the main driver is the availability of student loans. When the government guarantees loans, you can lend whatever you want! The price of a TRIPLE occupancy dorm + 7 day meal access is $14,813.29/YEAR at UC Davis. The "meals", if they haven't changed in the last decade, are Sodexo garbage. And don't forget a "year" doesn't count the summer, or winter break.

You act like that's a lot. The Davis dorms are on campus. You couldn't find an equivalent private space across the street for that price or else everyone would do it.

This argument is really disingenuous.

Edit: Also I believe Sodexo only runs things like the franchised Taco Bell and not dining commons but I don't know that for sure.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Students need to decide if a college degree is worth taking on a massive amount of debt. Either we have lots of young people making bad decisions, or a college degree is incredibly valuable. It's not like the terms of student loans are exceptionally great for the students.

I managed to get through college (WGU) without any debt. Looking at the amount of debt that my peers have taken on, however, has made me reconsider the wisdom of my decision. It's likely that political campaigns in the next few years will promise some form of student debt relief. Whether delivery of those promises is possible or not remains to be seen.

I suppose the grass is always greener, but I wouldn't reconsider the wisdom of your decision.

I took the other path, and am left trying to throw off the burden while I can still take youthful risks, and carpe the damn diem. The window is closing fast on me.

If I had enough in hand to pay off my loans, there's no way I'd elect to waste even more of my life waiting to see if some currently unimaginable fit of political productivity might let me off the hook.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#170
post #54

> Ultimately, college is expensive in the U.S. for the same reason MRIs are expensive: There is no central mechanism to control price increases. “Universities extract money from students because they can,” says Schleicher at the OECD. “It’s the inevitable outcome of an unregulated fee structure.” That assertion makes no sense. In a market economy, almost all prices are unregulated. Yet the prices of TVs, hamburgers,…

Right. The problem with college is that customers are price-insensitive. If a college raises its tuition, plenty of people will just sigh and take out the necessary loans. And then of course they have no trouble getting credit, since student loans are much less risky for lenders than other types of loans.
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