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Why Is College in America So Expensive?

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Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#101

Post by ghobs91 »

All the gov would need to do is mandate that colleges charge tuition as a percentage of post-graduation salary, and you'd see half of these low quality colleges peddling worthless degrees go bankrupt overnight.

At the end of the day, this country needs to decide whether the role of universities is to train students for career paths, or purely to provide higher education. It's very difficult to orient the structure around both without the incentive's being misaligned towards one of them.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#102

Post by fzeroracer »

frebord wrote: post #91
Domenic_S wrote: post #3

I didn't see this discussed in the article, but IMO the main driver is the availability of student loans. When the government guarantees loans, you can lend whatever you want! The price of a TRIPLE occupancy dorm + 7 day meal access is $14,813.29/YEAR at UC Davis. The "meals", if they haven't changed in the last decade, are Sodexo garbage. And don't forget a "year" doesn't count the summer, or winter break.

> Ultimately, college is expensive in the U.S. for the same reason MRIs are expensive: There is no central mechanism to control price increases. “Universities extract money from students because they can,” says Schleicher at the OECD. “It’s the inevitable outcome of an unregulated fee structure.” Why do people always reach for central control, when we have the ultimate mechanism of price control as a core part of our…

The free market does not work in all situations. There's a reason why our healthcare is an absolute disaster compared to any other first world country, why our college is far more expensive, why our drugs cost more etc

And it ain't because of cost control. Every time we loosen the reins a bit and let the 'free market' take the wheels, we see things get a lot worse for Americans as a whole. Especially when you have giant companies controlling the market entirely, like with ISPs.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#103

Post by throwawayjava »

frebord wrote: post #91
Domenic_S wrote: post #3

I didn't see this discussed in the article, but IMO the main driver is the availability of student loans. When the government guarantees loans, you can lend whatever you want! The price of a TRIPLE occupancy dorm + 7 day meal access is $14,813.29/YEAR at UC Davis. The "meals", if they haven't changed in the last decade, are Sodexo garbage. And don't forget a "year" doesn't count the summer, or winter break.

> Ultimately, college is expensive in the U.S. for the same reason MRIs are expensive: There is no central mechanism to control price increases. “Universities extract money from students because they can,” says Schleicher at the OECD. “It’s the inevitable outcome of an unregulated fee structure.” Why do people always reach for central control, when we have the ultimate mechanism of price control as a core part of our…

> Why do people always reach for central control, when we have the ultimate mechanism of price control as a core part of our society (competition).

The USA has 4,000+ colleges, most of which do compete aggressively for students. Huge marketing departments with regional and national reach. Radio ads. Television ads. Print ads. Marketing networks with college counselors. Salespeople who spend many months attending college fairs. Fancy dorms and other amenities. Carefully crafted discount rates applied in a way that tickles the applicant's ego in just the right way. Beautifully crafted websites. Massive landscaping budgets, the bulk of which is spent during recruiting season. Expensive logos and mottos crafted by marketing firms that spend a lot of time with study groups. And so on. Higher ed marketing is a big industry in the USA.

Competition alone does not drive prices down.

> What happens when the government tries to provide for us... they gaurantee your student loan: Skyrocketing cost of school

Well, maybe the government should actually provide education instead of providing financial products...

On that note, both European higher ed and US K12 would like to have a word...

IMO the problem in health and education is that we can't stomach the massive inequalities that show up in free markets (healthcare: let people die; education: only the rich and a few lower-risk borrowers get higher ed), but also can't commit to just socializing the whole damned enterprise. We need to abandon our morality or abandon our aversion to socialism; until we choose one, we'll be stuck with these extremely suboptimal public/private "solutions".

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#104

Post by IronWolve »

dnissley wrote: post #72
IronWolve wrote: post #4

Many western states got together to provide a cheaper alternative to state schools. Western Governors University is about 6k a year and is online and accredited. Its also used for teachers to get their advanced degrees while working full-time jobs. You can also go as fast or slow as you can/want. You could, in theory, do it in 3 years, so 18k TOTAL, that's pretty affordable. No idea if there is an option for eastern…

I'm currently in their CS program that just opened up in June. I've been a software engineer for about a decade and so have picked up a pretty decent CS background just through osmosis. Here's the response I gave to a young person who wanted to know if they should go to a community college or WGU: Honestly if I didn't already know like 3/4 the stuff for almost every class I've taken so far I would probably hate this…

When I talked to them, the CS/IT programs had test outs, but they seem to be Microsoft oriented so the tests are most likely the microsoft tests.

But this was a few years ago, so no idea how they just started offering their CS in June.

You would have to confirm them. I had a co-worker who was attending while working a full time job, thats how I found out about it.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#105

Post by fzeroracer »

jaxtellerSoA wrote: post #64
xienze wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't see this discussed in the article, but IMO the main driver is the availability of student loans. When the government guarantees loans, you can lend whatever you want! The other kicker is that they bake BIG subsidies for low-income students into tuition, which I found rather counter-intuitive. We're gonna raise tuition... to help students who can't afford tuition... pay for tuition that they can't afford...…

> As bizarre as it sounds, I think if you stripped subsidies and the effect of near-universal availability of student loans out of the equation But the lefties will cry "You're discriminating and making it harder for poor people to get an education". So it will never happen.

Or, we can go the tried-and-true European route of making higher education free instead of all this stupid experimentation for the sake of a 'free market' which results in disaster for some of our most vulnerable citizens.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#106

Post by bhupy »

fzeroracer wrote: post #102
frebord wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ultimately, college is expensive in the U.S. for the same reason MRIs are expensive: There is no central mechanism to control price increases. “Universities extract money from students because they can,” says Schleicher at the OECD. “It’s the inevitable outcome of an unregulated fee structure.” Why do people always reach for central control, when we have the ultimate mechanism of price control as a core part of our…

The free market does not work in all situations. There's a reason why our healthcare is an absolute disaster compared to any other first world country, why our college is far more expensive, why our drugs cost more etc And it ain't because of cost control. Every time we loosen the reins a bit and let the 'free market' take the wheels, we see things get a lot worse for Americans as a whole. Especially when you have gi…

Healthcare in America is one of the least free markets in the country.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/31/17629526/m...

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#107

Post by fzeroracer »

bhupy wrote: post #106
fzeroracer wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The free market does not work in all situations. There's a reason why our healthcare is an absolute disaster compared to any other first world country, why our college is far more expensive, why our drugs cost more etc And it ain't because of cost control. Every time we loosen the reins a bit and let the 'free market' take the wheels, we see things get a lot worse for Americans as a whole. Especially when you have gi…

Healthcare in America is one of the least free markets in the country. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/31/17629526/m...

I don't see a statistic or actual citation there other than an issue with potentially out of date laws.

How are you quantifying American Healthcare as being one of the least free markets? And how does it compare to other countries? I don't see anyone ever actually quantify how 'free' a market is; people only ever argue that if a market is not working therefore it's not free enough, which means we must make it free.

At what point are we going to stop and realize sometimes it just doesn't work? Especially for issues that result in the death of Americans?

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#108

Post by tptacek »

l9k wrote: post #89
rayiner wrote: post #54

> Ultimately, college is expensive in the U.S. for the same reason MRIs are expensive: There is no central mechanism to control price increases. “Universities extract money from students because they can,” says Schleicher at the OECD. “It’s the inevitable outcome of an unregulated fee structure.” That assertion makes no sense. In a market economy, almost all prices are unregulated. Yet the prices of TVs, hamburgers,…

Competition in TVs and colleges differ largely in terms of quantity, quality. In any way, those are two totally different things you can't compare

Only in the sense that you generally have fewer options and substitutes for a particular TV than you do for a particular college, right?

"Hamburgers" and "TVs" are also very different products with different cost structures, different market channels, and different competitive landscapes. But we have no trouble reasoning about how the market deals with prices of both those goods. What makes college different? If you can't answer that, you're just begging the question.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#109

Post by Alupis »

fzeroracer wrote: post #100
Alupis wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're talking to a student who's spent 15 years attending community college and then University while working several full-time jobs to get to where I am today. Don't tell me I'm out of touch when I'm living exactly what I'm preaching. Don't tell me it's impossible when I'm doing exactly what I advocate for. It's time to change the University system... and standing here and saying these things are too hard to fix is…

And you're talking to someone that went through it all the same. Just because it's worked out for you doesn't make your experience the norm for all students. If you're expecting all students to spend 15+ years working just to get through their degree then I would argue that system is just as fucked up as the one we currently have. The solution is to make college free for students and wipe away student loan debt. You'…

Why do we need a solution "right now"? Why can't we take the time to get it right - instead of applying just another band-aid that will need further fixing a few years down the road. Enough band-aids...

Not everyone needs to attend University and get a shiny degree - we need to stop that narrative while we're at it. There's plenty of trades that pay well and are in high demand. There's nothing wrong with being a blue collar worker, and we need to, as a society, stop thumbing our nose at it.

I assert making college free for students has two effects:

1) Makes the experience less valuable for the individual. 2) Increases taxpayer burden for largely frivolous degree programs.

Number one is because without "skin in the game", it's difficult to appreciate what you have. How many of us look back and truly appreciate High School classes? They were free for most of us... but it was just something you had to do to get on with your life. You weren't there because you wanted to be. You weren't hungry to learn, and you certainly don't remember every detail from 11th grade literature class, nor are you applying those experiences to your work today. We risk turning University into the same experience, and in the process we devalue bachelor degree programs more-so than they already are. That's not to say University should spin you into massive debt - we need to fix that too, but I refer back to my original assertions about encouraging (or mandating) full-time employment while attending school.

Number two is because, imo, there's a large number of degree programs that should not capture taxpayer funding or offer loans. If you're going to major in psychology, you almost certainly should continue through to a master's program or higher - if you stop with a bachelors, your job prospects are extremely limited. If you're going to major in art history - we need to be realistic with expectations... you're probably not going to find a job in that field very easily if at all.

We do our students a disservice by brainwashing everyone into believing going to University and graduating in 4 years with a shiny bachelors degree is the only way to earn a decent living. Reality is all too often the opposite - people graduating after 5-7 years with degrees industry doesn't want and zero experience in what industry expects, only to find out students can't secure well-paying jobs several years after leaving University. It's no surprise really.

Re: Why Is College in America So Expensive?

#110

Post by skybrian »

xienze wrote: post #15
Domenic_S wrote: post #3

I didn't see this discussed in the article, but IMO the main driver is the availability of student loans. When the government guarantees loans, you can lend whatever you want! The price of a TRIPLE occupancy dorm + 7 day meal access is $14,813.29/YEAR at UC Davis. The "meals", if they haven't changed in the last decade, are Sodexo garbage. And don't forget a "year" doesn't count the summer, or winter break.

> I didn't see this discussed in the article, but IMO the main driver is the availability of student loans. When the government guarantees loans, you can lend whatever you want! The other kicker is that they bake BIG subsidies for low-income students into tuition, which I found rather counter-intuitive. We're gonna raise tuition... to help students who can't afford tuition... pay for tuition that they can't afford...…

This is called price discrimination. It's similar to what airlines do (in their own way). Many businesses will try to charge customers who can afford it more than penny-pinchers.

It's part of what the article called "being entrepreneural". There are some companies that compete with lower prices for all, but it's not the most common strategy.

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