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Dark Motives and Elective Use of Brainteaser Interview Questions

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Re: Dark Motives and Elective Use of Brainteaser Interview Questions

#91

Post by sidlls »

welcome_dragon wrote: post #25
rossdavidh wrote: post #4

So, there's a hidden value to these sorts of questions, but it is useful to the interviewee, not the interviewer. If they use lots of these questions, you probably don't want to work there, or at least not for the person who's asking those questions.

I disagree, as long as getting the right answer isn't important. I flat out tell people I don't care if they get the right answer, that I just want to hear their thought process. Such questions used in this way are extremely valuable.

They're valuable for what? Showing off a thought process in a high pressure one hour meeting with a judge watching you?

Re: Dark Motives and Elective Use of Brainteaser Interview Questions

#92

Post by mgraczyk »

illumin8 wrote: post #77
jfasi wrote: post #7

As someone who does both a lot of interviewing (at Google) and gives a lot of advice on interviewing to people just starting out, this rhymes with my intuition about why some people get into interviews: even without the use of brainteasers (which, for the record, are not used at Google), the interview process is hard . People rarely come out of it without at least a twinge of frustration of humiliation. I'm not immun…

I interviewed at Google (back in 2005, mind you) and I remember being asked a couple brain teaser questions like how to estimate the number of windows in NYC. I will say that out of my loop, there were only 2 interviewers that came across as intentionally mean, the rest were genuinely wanting to see how I solved problems and understand what my thought process was, which is what most interviewers should be attempting…

This was 13 years ago, and Google has since had many "revelations" about its misuse of useless tools like brainteasers. The current process and interviewer training/selection process is nothing like the process in 2005.

Re: Dark Motives and Elective Use of Brainteaser Interview Questions

#93

Post by mfonda »

Being able to approximately estimate numbers is an excellent skill for software developers to have. Imagine you're running some operation that affects N things or has N results. After seeing the results, it's very helpful to ask yourself "Does N roughly match what my intuition/estimate told me it would be?" If your estimate is off by at least an order of magnitude, it's a hint there could be a bug in your solution and that it warrants a closer look.

I don't ask brainteaser type questions, but I can see their appeal given the value of estimates. I also don't see why they're so universally hated. Is doing back-of-the-napkin math something a lot of people struggle with?

Re: Dark Motives and Elective Use of Brainteaser Interview Questions

#94

Post by s73v3r_ »

sjg007 wrote: post #88
gcatalfamo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you had to give out a number.

How about $5B with a 99% confidence interval between $0 and $1 trillion. That's a number.

Sorry, that's not close enough. Can you do better?

(For the record, the person you originally responded to did not share that question with the intention of you actually trying to answer it. The point was the illustrate how ludicrous some of those questions are. You don't have access to any of the information that you mentioned in your response in the interview.)

Re: Dark Motives and Elective Use of Brainteaser Interview Questions

#95

Post by pinewurst »

pnw_hazor wrote: post #52
nimbius wrote: post #28

I dont work in tech, im an engine mechanic by trade, but im fascinated to know why/how often this happens in a tech interview? Do programmers/sys admins really endure this kind of aggravation in their interviews? The hardest question I've ever asked one of my shop mechanics during an interview was how does Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) in a Diesel engine affect thermal efficiency, smoke output and emissions of the…

Think of the type of person that would suffer through this type of indignation. And, the type of person the gleefully puts people through this kind of hazing. Sounds like perfect formula for building toxic workplaces full of people with personality disorders.

That's why I'm not a software developer any more, even though I greatly enjoy the creative aspects of the work.

Re: Dark Motives and Elective Use of Brainteaser Interview Questions

#96

Post by s73v3r_ »

segmondy wrote: post #68
throwawaymath wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say the questions that fund asked you are relevant to the work you do (or would be doing) there? I think that's the core criticism most people levy against the "high tech" interview questions.

People that don't get the offer tend to complain about such things. They are asking questions to measure how you think, to measure your potential, to see how you handle stress. If you are stressing over an interview, what will you do when you lose $1 million in 10 seconds?

That answer doesn't really hold up because the people coding the system aren't the ones doing the trading, and most jobs that use similar "stressful" interviews don't have anything like that anyways.

Re: Dark Motives and Elective Use of Brainteaser Interview Questions

#97

Post by Timmah »

nimbius wrote: post #28

I dont work in tech, im an engine mechanic by trade, but im fascinated to know why/how often this happens in a tech interview? Do programmers/sys admins really endure this kind of aggravation in their interviews? The hardest question I've ever asked one of my shop mechanics during an interview was how does Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) in a Diesel engine affect thermal efficiency, smoke output and emissions of the…

It happens because the types of problems software engineers face are random and require active engagement and creativity to solve.

There's no book that you can read that says "if the program crashes, try these things". Yes there are basics but theres no real formula that always leads to the solution. Each program is unique enough that you have to study the internals of how it works and then test hypotheses about the root cause.

In engines, they all follow the same predefined models. Software does have "models" but most people don't use them or they blend models together and don't document how they work. So we end up with having to solve many problems on the fly. Not everyone can do this (crucially, even people with cs degrees) , so to avoid hiring people who can't, they try to test for the ability during the interview. This is fraught with an entire slew of issues. Some of which are non-technical people asking the questions, applicants sharing the answers and gaming the system, or as the article says, sadistic interviewers that enjoy the feeling of power. To date, nobody has found a universally effective system to hire good programmers.

Re: Dark Motives and Elective Use of Brainteaser Interview Questions

#98

Post by ataturk »

wolfgke wrote: post #32
pinewurst wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like military academy (or fraternity) hazing. You've been abused, therefore you want to pass the load of that abuse on. Maybe you delude yourself into calling it "tradition" or "high standards" or maybe you're just honest and enjoy the sadism of it all.

> It's like military academy (or fraternity) hazing. You've been abused, therefore you want to pass the load of that abuse on. I really cannot imagine why people have this behavior. I was often treated unfairly in life, so I try to architect systems that attempt to avoid my perceived unfairness so that the next generation does not have to suffer similarly (ideally in way for which correctness can be shown in a mathem…

It's called "being an asshole" and there's lots and lots of people like that out there!

I am currently running interviews at a Fortune 10 company. We get a ton of fake outs. Even using Webex, they have clever schemes for getting assistance answering our questions and some of the tricksters are so slick that it is nigh impossible to detect the fraud.

Another tactic we are running into right now is when the interview is by phone, we talk to someone really great who sounds like an excellent fit and then the recruiting firm sends a different, low-skilled cutout over in their place. Now, every contractor gets re-interviewed onsite or Day 1 we assess skills and let them go if they aren't a fit. It's horrendous.

Re: Dark Motives and Elective Use of Brainteaser Interview Questions

#100

Post by s73v3r_ »

pnw_hazor wrote: post #52
nimbius wrote: post #28

I dont work in tech, im an engine mechanic by trade, but im fascinated to know why/how often this happens in a tech interview? Do programmers/sys admins really endure this kind of aggravation in their interviews? The hardest question I've ever asked one of my shop mechanics during an interview was how does Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) in a Diesel engine affect thermal efficiency, smoke output and emissions of the…

Think of the type of person that would suffer through this type of indignation. And, the type of person the gleefully puts people through this kind of hazing. Sounds like perfect formula for building toxic workplaces full of people with personality disorders.

No, that's not entirely right. Many of us that hate it and don't want anything to do with it still endure it, because the alternative is not getting a job.
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