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The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

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Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#41

Post by andrepd »

nafey wrote: post #2

But what was the alternative to the bailouts? Another depression? I feel we made it across fairly well.

The bailouts are controversial, but it's the bailouts AND the complete absence of criminal responsibility that's inexcusable.

It is well known and documented that the financial crisis was no accident; everybody who headed the financial services industry to the state it was in did so knowingly, knowing full well the inevitable consequences, but not giving a damn because the arrangement let them to become handsomely wealthy, beyond our imagination. They masked everything with a mixture of stacking the regulators with their ilk, stacking the universities with their ilk (economics as a field has zero credibility to me since I discovered how many theses "greenlighting" CDOs were written in clear conflict of interest), stacking the government with their ilk.

Then while we (working class) were dealing with the fallout, tithing part of our work to reimburse their losses, not ONE of those criminals (with the blood of millions across the globe on their hands, make no mistake) was prosecuted or in any way made to answer for their actions. Much to the contrary, they went on enjoying the same mind-boggling luxurious elite lifestyle they always did.

It's feudalism with extra steps.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#42

Post by Lazeb »

wiz21c wrote: post #8
simplemts wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Debt is worse now than in 2008. We haven't / didn't escape anything, just passed it on to future generation(s). Future generations will be paying the bill for mistakes of their parents.

As a parent, I fail to see exactly how I'm guilty of anything here. I used the banks because I had to, I listened to their advice because I can't possibly become an expert on their subjects, etc. I even voted for people who want to regulate them. I don't play on the stock exchange (pension funds do, with my money). I didn't do anything wrong. My children will pay for the mess a few made by pushing unreasonable expect…

>But remember, I have to live in the system.

That's generally the problem is that people can only ever see a solution that mirrors our society as is which means voting for the same politicians talking about the same neo-liberal capitalist economy, people need to be a bit braver ideologically if they don't want the wealth gap to increase and when the time for peaceful solutions has passed. We see the rise of the far right, it's slow but there's no denying those people are there in significant numbers and won't go away by calling them all sorts. It would be easy for me as a generally liberal middle-class white man to say everything is fine now but there are some issues which are still prevalent that can't be ignored.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#43

Post by rhaps0dy »

koolba wrote: post #35
tokyodude wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't a clue about the whether the bailouts were important or not. What I feel like I would have liked is for the bailouts to happen AND the top 20 to 100 people from every financial institution to have gone to prison for at least 10 years. The president of Goldman Sachs, the president (or ex-President) of Lehman, etc... etc... What it seems like from the outside is they screwed the world over and completely got…

What crime did each of those executives commit? That’s what needs to be answered. Otherwise your comment reads like a mob chanting “ We want blood! ” Being greedy is not a crime. Taking advantage of lax regulations is not a crime. Being bailed out with tax dollars for risks that paid you off privately if they won is not a crime.

> Being greedy is not a crime. Taking advantage of lax regulations is not a crime. Being bailed out with tax dollars for risks that paid you off privately if they won is not a crime.

Maybe that's your point, but therein lies the problem. Doing all these things has an upside but no downside, therefore we're encouraging antisocial behaviour.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#44

Post by Lazeb »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #29
teekert wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will they pay the bill or will they revolt? I feel it is time for some of the latter.

The trouble with revolutions is you end up with a new set of leaders, who may well be worse than what you have now.

If your life is poor, you don't have much left to lose

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#45

Post by andrepd »

lucozade wrote: post #32
tokyodude wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't a clue about the whether the bailouts were important or not. What I feel like I would have liked is for the bailouts to happen AND the top 20 to 100 people from every financial institution to have gone to prison for at least 10 years. The president of Goldman Sachs, the president (or ex-President) of Lehman, etc... etc... What it seems like from the outside is they screwed the world over and completely got…

Is it their failure you believe they should be jailed for or something else? Do you believe that the CEO of any company that fails should be jailed or just banks? There was undoubtedly plenty of hubris, greed and incompetence to go round. I also believe that some of what occurred should, in hindsight, have been illegal. But having some sort of sacrifice to appease the gods is a little outdated. Oh, and yes, all the C…

The companies didn't just "fail", which implies accident or even incompetence but not malice. What happened was that the elite of the financial services industry arranged a nice little cash cow for themselves, enabling them personally to live lavish lifestyles, knowing perfectly well the consequences in the end (which, for them, due to their complicity with the regulators and governments, were none).

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#46

Post by andrepd »

freddie_mercury wrote: post #37
heavenlyblue wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they are incompetent and they have consciously taken the positions they hold - then they are liable. Finance isn't "revolutionary" tech - there isn't much you can do that requires high risks and actually rewards you in the long run. I would wonder what you'd say about a general who didn't know that using chemical warfare is a possible tribunal scenario. We have a similar legal case in maritime law, where captains…

> Finance isn't "revolutionary" tech - there isn't much you can do that requires high risks and actually rewards you in the long run. I don't think you read the article because it is based on a 700 page book about how it was revolutionary tech. It was just revolutionary finance tech. There was no ABCP before, there were no CDOs before, there were no central bank swaps before, there was no wholesale funding market, th…

All of those "technologies" you mentioned are schemes for a small elite to accumulate wealth.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#47

Post by chiefalchemist »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #27
tokyodude wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't a clue about the whether the bailouts were important or not. What I feel like I would have liked is for the bailouts to happen AND the top 20 to 100 people from every financial institution to have gone to prison for at least 10 years. The president of Goldman Sachs, the president (or ex-President) of Lehman, etc... etc... What it seems like from the outside is they screwed the world over and completely got…

Sending people to prison involves prosecuting people for breaking laws somehow, which isn’t easy. You can’t just send them to jail on a whim. Even if what they did was wrong, unless there was a law against it the government didn’t really have many options here. They could make up some laws after the fact to prevent future abuse, but cannot make them retroactive.

I think it's fairly safe to say, the conspiracy that created the collapse amounted to financial terrorism, and then (to fix things) extortion.

We have the laws. What we lack if the will and the power to apply them.

Economist had calculated a significant number of deaths (worldwide) resulted from the 2007 / 2008 crisis. I believe the number was approx 30,000 (but it may be higher).

Editorial: If we don't have laws for such things then the elected should be shackled for their neglect and failure.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#48

Post by chrisweekly »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #13
teekert wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will they pay the bill or will they revolt? I feel it is time for some of the latter.

Depends what proportion of them are kept content with mediocre food, shelter, and a slimmer of hope that their kids can move up in the game. And as long as the security guards (military and police) are kept happy and well equipped, then a small number of them should be able to keep the rest in line. Debt is the smart way to keep them in the hamster wheel. Edit: fixed contempt to content

contempt -> content

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#49

Post by raesene9 »

lucozade wrote: post #32
tokyodude wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't a clue about the whether the bailouts were important or not. What I feel like I would have liked is for the bailouts to happen AND the top 20 to 100 people from every financial institution to have gone to prison for at least 10 years. The president of Goldman Sachs, the president (or ex-President) of Lehman, etc... etc... What it seems like from the outside is they screwed the world over and completely got…

Is it their failure you believe they should be jailed for or something else? Do you believe that the CEO of any company that fails should be jailed or just banks? There was undoubtedly plenty of hubris, greed and incompetence to go round. I also believe that some of what occurred should, in hindsight, have been illegal. But having some sort of sacrifice to appease the gods is a little outdated. Oh, and yes, all the C…

As to CEOs being irreplaceable sure, but they're also very focused on not going to jail. Personal liability for top execs which might actually result in jail time is a powerful incentive for those execs to ensure their companies don't engage in that kind of behaviour.

Re: The Real Cost of the 2008 Financial Crisis

#50

Post by KarlRutnick »

nafey wrote: post #2

But what was the alternative to the bailouts? Another depression? I feel we made it across fairly well.

Both US and EU should have done the same as Norwegian Government did during our banking crisis in the 90s. Let the banks fail, stocks to zero, no bailout of investors or paper/derivatives holders etc... then nationalize their brick and mortar operation so the real economy keeps functioning
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