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Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

theguardian.com

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Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#71

Post by nine_k »

femto wrote: post #62
kickscondor wrote: post #25

Beaker Browser (mentioned as one of many possibilities in this article) is the real deal. If it doesn't get you fired up about the possibilities, then - well let me explain I guess: * The interface is dead simple - share this folder, done. * It is a read-write browser. Netscape (and other browsers) used to be this way - they had some limited HTML creation tools. Beaker brings this back in the form of making an "edita…

I'll mention Amaya here. https://www.w3.org/Amaya/ The original vision for the web was that editing/creation had the same status as viewing/consumption, and that websites were writable as well as readable. This is what Amaya implemented. It never gained wide adoption, but is served as a reference implementation of the W3C's vision of the web. (In my experience Amays is not particularly usable because it regularly cra…

I'd hazard to say that the concept of "wiki" is what successfully implemented that early vision of editable WWW.

Wiki markup is different from HTML markup, but it represents many of the same (early) text-formatting and resource-linking concepts, while limiting the excessively powerful features of arbitrary layout, scripting, etc.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#73

Post by skybrian »

adventured wrote: post #65
skybrian wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems implausible. Moore's law is over and phones are limited by size and power. There's no reason to believe progress will continue until a phone is the same speed as a typical desktop machine, let alone a server rack.

Interestingly it's the centralized network that will grow radically more powerful, while the home devices continue to stagnate. The total capacity of infrastructure entities like AWS will increase by 10x at a minimum over the next decade. By comparison, your phone or laptop will modestly nudge forward. Consumers are not going to buy 10x the number of laptops, desktops and smartphones that they do today, ten years out…

That sounds very plausible to me, but I still think decentralized server-side infrastructure has some potential. Sandstorm didn't take off and maybe Mastodon isn't it, either, but it seems like someone's going to have consumer-friendly, <$10/year, general-purpose server accounts for running apps. Maybe some game will make it popular?

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#74

Post by bfuller »

godzillabrennus wrote: post #64
sixdimensional wrote: post #48

It strikes me that, if we are ever to expand the Internet into space on a universal scale (a la Vint Cerf and "delay tolerant networking", as an example), the inherent physics problems involved with distances and connectivity in space would probably make decentralization an absolute requirement. I mean, it seems it would not be uncommon for there to be a "local net" and a "universal peer-to-peer or mesh network net".…

Quantum entanglement seems poised to provide real-time interstellar communication.

This seems relevant to my industry

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#75

Post by superkuh »

bushin wrote: post #72

Let's be realistic here, AMP is the next big step for the web :(

You're not wrong. But it's a step backwards and not forwards.

AMP is not any faster to load than the actual site not on google's CDN. The only reason it appears faster in most situations is because google is abusing it's monopoly search position to pre-load and prioritize AMP results.

AMP gives google more control and that's why they push it so hard. This plus their quest for hiding and/or getting rid of URLs so they can use AOL-style keywords within their AMP walled garden is multiple steps back. All the way to the late 90s.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#76

Post by toofy »

magila wrote: post #51
dcposch wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what this is about. Current web tech is inherently centralizing. Say you want to create an experience like Instagram or Twitter, delivered via HTTP. You have to pay for bandwidth, CDNs, storage, app servers, DB servers, etc etc. At scale, it's millions a month. So only corporations can do it, and with a few exceptions (eg Craigslist, Stack Exchange) they end up monetizing and "growth hacking" in user hostile w…

The hosting cost for things like Facebook and Twitter are a pittance compared to the cost of employing all of the engineers/designers/etc who enhance and maintain those services. That IMO is the biggest economic challenge facing decentralized applications. You can make some nice proof-of-concepts with a group of volunteers, but the effort required to provide a UX comparable to centralized services is going to take mo…

If the open source ecosystem as a whole has taught us anything, we can take things much further than simply proof of concept and still remain open.

I think your point on UX/UI is an important point though. Open source has a turbulent history with functional UX. We’ve done an incredible job helping the technical communities understand why open source is important but because so many of us are technically focused, we’ve fallen somewhat short on helping UX and design focused communities understand why open projects are important, on a deep level, in much the same way technically focused understand.

If we’re aiming for mass adoptions across the spectrum, onboarding the UX/UI communities is as important as it was for the technically focused to understand.

Also, there is another point worth considering, someone recently made a convincing argument to me that sometimes mass adoption may not be a good thing. Mass adoption leads to eternal September and depending on what the project is, eternal September may destroy a community. A project with a solid technical foundation but difficult UX/UI experience can be a good barrier to prevent eternal September.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#77

Post by antidesitter »

godzillabrennus wrote: post #64
sixdimensional wrote: post #48

It strikes me that, if we are ever to expand the Internet into space on a universal scale (a la Vint Cerf and "delay tolerant networking", as an example), the inherent physics problems involved with distances and connectivity in space would probably make decentralization an absolute requirement. I mean, it seems it would not be uncommon for there to be a "local net" and a "universal peer-to-peer or mesh network net".…

Quantum entanglement seems poised to provide real-time interstellar communication.

Nope: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-communication_theorem.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#78

Post by pfraze »

zmw wrote: post #60
kickscondor wrote: post #25

Beaker Browser (mentioned as one of many possibilities in this article) is the real deal. If it doesn't get you fired up about the possibilities, then - well let me explain I guess: * The interface is dead simple - share this folder, done. * It is a read-write browser. Netscape (and other browsers) used to be this way - they had some limited HTML creation tools. Beaker brings this back in the form of making an "edita…

I checked out Beaker Browser, and apparently it's based on the Dat project [1], which seems to be very similar to IPFS. Then apparently it follows that, just like IPFS, you can't throw random things onto the network and expect it to stick; you need to pay someone for hosting and bandwidth (that someone could be yourself) to have it pinned, and in order to have it available worldwide at all times you still need to pay…

Some things in p2p hypermedia (dat) that's not possible with http/s:

* You can generate domains freely using pubkeys and without coordinating with other devices, therefore enabling the browser to generate new sites at-will and to fork existing sites

* Integrity checks & signatures within the protocol which enables multiple untrusted peers to 'host'. This also means the protocol scales horizontally to meet demand.

* Versioned URLs

* Protocol methods to read site listings and the revision history

* Offline writes which sync to the network asynchronously

* Standard Web APIs for reading, writing, and watching the files on Websites from the browser. This means the dat network can be used as the primary data store for apps. It's a networked data store, so you can build multi-user applications with dat and client-size JS alone.

I'm probably forgetting some. You do still need devices which provide uptime, but they can be abstracted into the background and effectively act as dumb/thin CDNs. And, if you don't want to do that, it is still possible to use your home device as the primary host, which isn't very easy with HTTP.

Re: Decentralisation: the next big step for the world wide web

#80

Post by legionof7 »

troquerre wrote: post #79

Handshake.org is tackling this problem by decentralizing DNS and removing the need for (and vulnerabilities associated with) certificate authorities. Disclosure: I founded Namebase which is a registrar for Handshake

I'm using the Namebase beta right now, it's great!
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