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To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

nytimes.com

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Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#91

Post by chasing »

kenneth wrote: post #63

> [Libraries provide] welcoming public spaces for the poor, the homeless and young people. And isn't this precisely why normal people don't use libraries anymore? Because they've become de facto homeless shelters with unsavory guests who frequently smell awful or use computers for watching porn. I recently visited the famous Seattle public library and was shocked by the nature of the guests.

Last library I went into was shortly after a local school had released the students for the day. It was full of kids excitedly looking around and checking out books and just generally seeming to enjoy themselves. It was awesome.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#92

Post by [deleted] »

interfixus wrote: post #8
krapp wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it's not the fault of libraries if society offers no more humane options for the homeless than to hang out there... nor is it the fault of the homeless.

No, but it is the fault of libraries if they fail to enforce reasonable standards of behavior on the premises.

[deleted]

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#93

Post by craftyguy »

cokernel wrote: post #70
craftyguy wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious if this is still a thing. Libraries in my county have moved to a completely online system for checking out books, renewing, etc. The system regularly recommends books to me 'based on previous borrows', which indicates they are tracking/storing information about what I have borrowed in the past. The next question is, who has access to this information? My guess in the library system here does not have a st…

Many libraries will purge checkout records once a patron returns books, but the increasing reliance on centralized cloud-based ILS vendors is making this harder to do reliably. I'd appreciate it if you could name the online system your county uses. (Or if you can provide a link.)

Sure, here's the website: https://www.wccls.org/

I'm not sure what backend they use for data storage, etc.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#94

Post by skookumchuck »

zanba38 wrote: post #12
detaro wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Avoiding patrons from being tracked/potentially in the future prosecuted for their reading is professional ethics for librarians, pretty much regardless of political alignment.

That's interesting and new to me, as I'm not American. Does the American government track or prosecute people for their reading habits in libraries? Is it to be expected then that librarians are aligned to the political left?

It isn't a left/right thing.

There was a case a while back where a woman poisoned her husband. The police found her thumbprint on a book on poisons in the library. I don't think they used library records, they just checked the book itself.

I also recall that there was considerable pushback from the librarians when the government demanded they hand over all borrower records.

Next time I go to the library I'll ask what the current state of this is. I hope their practice is to purge records when you return a book.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#95

Post by closeparen »

mxuribe wrote: post #73
kenneth wrote: post #63

> [Libraries provide] welcoming public spaces for the poor, the homeless and young people. And isn't this precisely why normal people don't use libraries anymore? Because they've become de facto homeless shelters with unsavory guests who frequently smell awful or use computers for watching porn. I recently visited the famous Seattle public library and was shocked by the nature of the guests.

It is unfortunate that your experience was not a positive one...but i suppose this says more about how society has failed in numerous ways that some citizens are grasping at straws, and leveraging the only available institutions for them.

You can say the same thing about public transit, parks, and the sidewalk.

Does it matter? Not one bit. Once those places are allowed to become disgusting, people with a choice in the matter stop going to them.

"You'd be surprised by how many San Franciscans think that the problem with human feces or used syringes on sidewalks is the 'lack of empathy' of those who notice them. That or their 'sense of entitlement.'"

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#96

Post by seltzered_ »

kenneth wrote: post #63

> [Libraries provide] welcoming public spaces for the poor, the homeless and young people. And isn't this precisely why normal people don't use libraries anymore? Because they've become de facto homeless shelters with unsavory guests who frequently smell awful or use computers for watching porn. I recently visited the famous Seattle public library and was shocked by the nature of the guests.

I wouldn't blame the library for Seattle's more general problems (income disparity / regressive tax setup, high cost of living, homelessness, drug use).

The porn use is a bit disgusting, and segues into some freedom of use topics - FWIW in Austin they sorta solve this by having separate 'unfiltered' computers with recessed screens. In seattle they seem to solve things by having separate computer areas between adults and kid areas.

As for library bathroom issues, Seattle libraries have been doing things to make them less inviting to wrong folks by making the sinks shallow, removing paper hand towel racks, etc. It's arguably a hard balance.

Anyway, if you get past these issues the Seattle libraries are pretty impressive compared to many other towns. The Seattle downtown library top floors are great for getting work done, and many other branches have quiet areas. The online access of e-books/audiobooks is also fairly vast.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#97

Post by fipple »

moorhosj wrote: post #68
kenneth wrote: post #63

> [Libraries provide] welcoming public spaces for the poor, the homeless and young people. And isn't this precisely why normal people don't use libraries anymore? Because they've become de facto homeless shelters with unsavory guests who frequently smell awful or use computers for watching porn. I recently visited the famous Seattle public library and was shocked by the nature of the guests.

Is there a source for “normal people don’t use libraries anymore”? I live in Chicago and our libraries are pretty consistently packed with people of all ages, incomes, living situations, etc.

I don’t take my kid to the library because of the homeless people there. I don’t oppose government funds being used to provide daytime facilities for homeless people, I just don’t think it should be at the same location as the kids library.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#98

Post by flyinghamster »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #45
flyinghamster wrote: post #19

My local library has even made a tech push, not just with computers available, but also has a couple of 3D printers and offers classes on using them. Or you can bring in finished .STL files for printing, for the cost of the material used.

Is this in USA, how does state provision of such services pair with USAmerican hatred of communism? Libraries, tool-shares, hackerspaces and such seem to be the epitomy of communism.

Communism? When did communism enter the picture?

This is in Illinois; the public library district is primarily funded by local taxes within its service area, and referenda on such were passed on multiple occasions. Some state and federal grants have also funded tech improvements. Its current land was purchased from the local school district in the 1970s.

Overall, regardless of today's bullshit political climate on the national level, there's a great deal of local civic pride here. The local government (which is separate from the library district) runs a balanced budget, the municipally-owned water system charges significantly lower rates than a neighboring town's privately-owned water system even though both of them get their water from Chicago, and the village has (when it made sense to do so) entered into electrical power purchase agreements that have resulted in lower electrical rates for residents. There's also a long tradition of reusing civic buildings; the village hall is a former school building, and the original fire station became the police station when the fire district expanded to three stations to deal with the town's growth.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#99

Post by bobthepanda »

cdoxsey wrote: post #72

> Libraries don’t just provide free access to books and other cultural materials, they also offer things like companionship for older adults, de facto child care for busy parents, language instruction for immigrants and welcoming public spaces for the poor, the homeless and young people. This is a description of the proper role of the church in civil society and a public library is a poor substitute. The church usher…

Depends on where you were. Growing up in NYC, which is pretty multifaceted and secular, relying on religious services was not going to work as a society-wide solution simply because the entire city did not share a religion. (In fact, some local religious communities, like the Hasidic Jews, are actually under investigation for failing to provide things like English literacy in their curricula.)

One thing New York City has going for it despite its awful governance is strong civic institutions, like the museums and the library systems (there are three), all of which have performed the functions listed in the article for well over a century at this point.

Re: To Restore Civil Society, Start with the Library

#100

Post by eftychis »

Alex3917 wrote: post #87
3rdAccount wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh...not a big fan of "STEAM" as opposed to "STEM". STEM exists because science, technology, engineering, and math don't get the focus they need in the standard US education system. There is also the arts of music, and drawing/painting/crafts, P.E., History, Literature that are still important, but take the focus away. If you say...well STEM is important, but let's not forget art, pretty soon you'll say well we als…

> STEM exists because science, technology, engineering, and math don't get the focus they need in the standard US education system. Pretty much every HS kid in America is required to take at least 3 full years of math and science if not 4. How exactly are they not getting the focus over art? Schools are cutting art programs left and right in order to allocate more resources toward things that get covered on standardi…

3? (Kind of Sarcastic) wow!

Every single year/quarter of a person's basic education includes math and science (physics and then biology and chemistry, then a bit of cs) where I am from. Thus, worst case scenario a person has spent 9 years on that stuff (among other topics sure).

Sure I can see art does not get a lot of focus from what you are saying and I do not have experience in your system to say what the balance kept. But I can see if a school is running under budget and needs to reduce something that art/music is the first to go. Pity.

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