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Infectious Theory of Alzheimer's Disease Draws Fresh Interest

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Re: Infectious Theory of Alzheimer's Disease Draws Fresh Interest

#31

Post by foobarian »

tim333 wrote: post #28
sandworm101 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This research could make it only more cruel. Proof that it is caused by a germ, that is may be catching, would suggest that sufferers should be isolated from healthy people to prevent spread of the infection. Id be happy if it were caused by bacteria or a virus. Those we can deal with. But what if it is a prion like bse? Could it linger in houses? Are nursing homes now a biohazard? Dark days. The link between viruses…

It's almost certainly not infectious in that kind of way or you'd notice the nurses in the old folks homes getting it.

Worst case: they are getting it, but not finding out until they themselves reach old age.

Re: Infectious Theory of Alzheimer's Disease Draws Fresh Interest

#32

Post by cmurf »

mabbo wrote: post #2

Alzheimer's is the cruelest of illnesses and the loved ones of the victims suffer as much as the victims. The allure of this theory, in my view, is that if you could somehow turn this into a treatment, people would give you whatever money you demanded for it. You want $200,000? We'll find it, somehow, just make Mom remember who I am, please.

And that is but one reason why our system of health care is immoral. Not amoral. People who are sick, their families watching, are not able to make rational economic decisions. These things should be decided when we are rational, as a society, and my preference is the "veil of ignorance" approach provided by John Rawls. If you don't know what disease you get, what your native tongue is, whether you're rich or poor, whether you're Muslim or atheist, man or woman or agender or other, family person or nomad - what kind of society would you want to build, and how should and would that society treat everyone as fairly as possible.

There is an exploitation in waiting, literally waiting, for people to get sick to have this conversation and decision making, as if health care is a product like any other, where some people will choose to buy even a chance, and others will admit defeat even with decent odds of success just because they can't afford it.

But we also take it farther, where a bulk of the cost and the cost increases, are masked from the actual consumer by employer paid health care. Every single time I talk to people who do not buy their own "aging and sick care maintenance plan" I'm impressed by how incredibly ignorant they are of cost. Average cost for a sore throat doctor visit, $603. If you aren't shopping, or aren't able to shop, how is this in any way an informed free market? It's like we've gone both anti-socialism and anti-capitalism at the same time to come up with the world's worst possible way of doing health care.

Imagine being behind the veil of ignorance and saying: only rich people should not have to worry about their health and sickness and aging, the middle class and poor properly should always wonder. And if really bad things happen through no fault of their own, they should properly be bankrupt. And none of this should be transparent or obvious or understandable by the average person. That is a good society that builds trust.

Of course no one would say that, except maybe comedians and wicked people.

Re: Infectious Theory of Alzheimer's Disease Draws Fresh Interest

#33

Post by maxerickson »

sandworm101 wrote: post #27
maxerickson wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amusing thing about your "cynicism" here is that $200,000 would be a substantial savings compared to what happens now, never mind the huge value an effective treatment would provide. In the US, the government (and thus society at large) bears much of the cost: http://act.alz.org/site/DocServer/2012_Costs_Fact_Sheet_vers...

And you have fallen into a different statistics trap. The number that matters isn't the cost of treating the patient. What matters is the increased lifetime costs of a paticular disease over the average. We all have to die of something. Diseases like lung cancer are cheap. The patients are either cured or dead relatively quickly. Demential is slow. Costs pile on for decades, starting often with forced early retiremen…

The linked pdf says that (in 2012), end of life care for Alzheimer's and other dementia patients was $110,000 more expensive than a couple of types of cancer.

Re: Infectious Theory of Alzheimer's Disease Draws Fresh Interest

#34

Post by caycep »

mariuolo wrote: post #20
mabbo wrote: post #2

Alzheimer's is the cruelest of illnesses and the loved ones of the victims suffer as much as the victims. The allure of this theory, in my view, is that if you could somehow turn this into a treatment, people would give you whatever money you demanded for it. You want $200,000? We'll find it, somehow, just make Mom remember who I am, please.

> The allure of this theory, in my view, is that if you could somehow turn this into a treatment, people would give you whatever money you demanded for it. You want $200,000? We'll find it, somehow, just make Mom remember who I am, please. Experts please correct me if I'm wrong, but even if this theory were to be proven true, how could it help anyone once the damage is done?

IT may be more like - give mom the ability to re-learn who I am. Once AD hits, the memories are destroyed, so if things get restored, it may very well be a new a different person. Albeit one with the ability to learn and retain memories.

Re: Infectious Theory of Alzheimer's Disease Draws Fresh Interest

#35

Post by caycep »

graeme wrote: post #4
eganist wrote: post #3

Prior discussions (not the same link) on HN, posted for reference because they touch on the past research that was previously posted here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17446016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540512 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17540094 (this is the parent link for the antiviral risk reduction study -- a good read, comments and source article) There's a decent amount of reading…

How would you know if you had HSV? My impression was that a lot of infections are so mild that those with them don't realize they had it.

This will be difficult. Everyone technically has HSV, it's just part of the environment, like E. coli. So the question may end up turning - do you give a medicine long-term to suppress existing HSV "flora" in the body/restore the immune system's ability to do so, vs. the side effects of such meds. Some people are on long-term acyclovir or valacyclovir, at the risk of increased strain on the kidneys, etc.

Re: Infectious Theory of Alzheimer's Disease Draws Fresh Interest

#36

Post by caycep »

reasonattlm wrote: post #19

Microbial theories of Alzheimer's don't change the amyloid cascade hypothesis picture - that the disease begins with high levels of amyloid aggregates, then proceeds to high levels of tau aggregates enabled by the amyloid, and it is the tau that causes the real harm. That persistent infections raise amyloid production - because that amyloid is a feature of the innate immune system - is a way to try to answer the ques…

this is likely true.

I have always wondered why some folks w/ amyloidosis or cerebral amyloid angiopathy don't show AD pathology or symptoms.

Re: Infectious Theory of Alzheimer's Disease Draws Fresh Interest

#37

Post by 14 »

Spooky23 wrote: post #30
sandworm101 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you have fallen into a different statistics trap. The number that matters isn't the cost of treating the patient. What matters is the increased lifetime costs of a paticular disease over the average. We all have to die of something. Diseases like lung cancer are cheap. The patients are either cured or dead relatively quickly. Demential is slow. Costs pile on for decades, starting often with forced early retiremen…

Nursing homes are among the cruelest and most in humane institutions, worse than prison in many ways. Anything that avoids nursing home days is worth it’s weight in gold.

I have worked in many as a care aid providin direct care to residents. I worked for 7 years in one facility that worked with advanced Alzheimer's and dementia like condition clients. I would not describe the nursing home as cruel or in-human, though to a person with sound mind it certainly would. The people who resided there simply could not live alone. They would soon be seriously hurt or die. So yes when they enter the facility they don't have all the same freedoms as you and I. It is not safe. They leave ovens on, let strangers have access to their money, go wondering in the night no regard to weather or other important factors and so on. Now on the family side of things they have been probably spending months trying to manage their loved one and at the same time are grieving the loss of that loved one as they watch the person they once knew fade away. Every hour for the family is spent wondering if mom or dad is safe at home and eventually their lives come to a halt and they start to experience care giver burn out. The facility provided a safe harbour for their loved ones. We ensured medications were taken on time. That they would get up in the morning and put on clean clothing and wash up as needed. We tried to entertain the residents with music, games and various activities. The facility I worked at made it so the families could finally breath and know their loved on me was safe at the end of the day. I hope others find the nursing homes they deal with to be the same experience.

Re: Infectious Theory of Alzheimer's Disease Draws Fresh Interest

#39

Post by jjeaff »

caycep wrote: post #34
mariuolo wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The allure of this theory, in my view, is that if you could somehow turn this into a treatment, people would give you whatever money you demanded for it. You want $200,000? We'll find it, somehow, just make Mom remember who I am, please. Experts please correct me if I'm wrong, but even if this theory were to be proven true, how could it help anyone once the damage is done?

IT may be more like - give mom the ability to re-learn who I am. Once AD hits, the memories are destroyed, so if things get restored, it may very well be a new a different person. Albeit one with the ability to learn and retain memories.

Presumably you would treat during early onset.

Re: Infectious Theory of Alzheimer's Disease Draws Fresh Interest

#40

Post by Izkata »

caycep wrote: post #34
mariuolo wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The allure of this theory, in my view, is that if you could somehow turn this into a treatment, people would give you whatever money you demanded for it. You want $200,000? We'll find it, somehow, just make Mom remember who I am, please. Experts please correct me if I'm wrong, but even if this theory were to be proven true, how could it help anyone once the damage is done?

IT may be more like - give mom the ability to re-learn who I am. Once AD hits, the memories are destroyed, so if things get restored, it may very well be a new a different person. Albeit one with the ability to learn and retain memories.

Is that something we actually know, that it's the storage area that's damaged and not the retrieval pathways?
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