Time to look beyond Oracle's JDK • Hacker News Board

Re: Time to look beyond Oracle's JDK

#51

Post by marmaduke » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 8:36 AM UTC

pard68 wrote: post #29

georgewfraser wrote: post #2

Why would a company pay for "commercial support" of OpenJDK from IBM? I have used Java for 15 years and I don't know what "support" for a JDK would mean.

The decision makers are not programmers. The people making the choices on software in an enterprise are MBAs who know next to nothing about software and so they need some "insurance". Look at the tech founded enterprises, they do not go the tradition enterprise software route. Why? Their leadership came from a developer background and not an MBA one.

I don’t think it’s that simple. As a dev or sysadmin, all it takes is to have resources invested in a legacy system that no one gave money to replace but are ok with maintenance contracts. This easily happens when people leave/get hired.

I have a legacy storage system only accessible through exactly Java 6u31 32-bit on Windows 7, of course I want to replace that but instead it’s cheaper to keep and maintain than to replace.

edit and I think this must be a conscious strategy on the part of any vendor: make maintenance just slightly cheaper than replacement

Re: Time to look beyond Oracle's JDK

#52

Post by jirkapinkas » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 8:37 AM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #48

jasonparallel wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Happen to have a good link to read about it?

"jlink" https://docs.oracle.com/javase/10/tools/jlink.htm#JSWOR- GUID-CECAC52B-CFEE-46CB-8166-F17A8E9280E9 "Self-Contained Application Packaging" https://docs.oracle.com/javase/10/deploy/self-contained-appl... "JLINK in Java-9" https://blog.knoldus.com/jlink-in-java-9/ "Using Java 9 Modularization to Ship Zero-Dependency Native Apps" https://steveperkins.com/using-java-9-modularization-to-ship...

Unfortunately it will take several years until you will be able to modularize server Java application. Right now the ecosystem just isn’t ready.

Re: Time to look beyond Oracle's JDK

#53

Post by hashrate » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 8:57 AM UTC

Interesting read.

I think the whole idea of "We need to replace Java with [Insert Language]" is much more complicated topic than just saying "X is free , Java is owned by Oracle".

Even is this is true , Java is by far one of the most performant programming language that exist on earth.

People just don't realize the hundreds of millions of dollars that went into the JVM and the JDK.

Even if they are great alternatives like Go or .NET , they either come with huge limitations in performance or their ecosystem.

Per say , finding JVM developers isn't that hard, regardless of the geography. However , finding Go developers outside of the Bay Area ? Good luck with that.

The issue with Patent on the JVM is well know and there is very little to nothing that we can do about it.

Re: Time to look beyond Oracle's JDK

#54

Post by jarofgreen » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 9:11 AM UTC

> Note also that certification is currently on a trust-basis - the results are not submitted to the JCP/Oracle for checking and cannot be made public.

Not public? Why on earth not?

Re: Time to look beyond Oracle's JDK

#55

Post by icebraining » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 9:19 AM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #30

jake_the_third wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a reasonable interpretation and I agree with GP. APIs used to be seen as fair use and a way to compete, in the similar way to how IBM-compatibles are seen. However, when it became clear to Oracle that there is money to be had, they changed the very definition of copyright to get their fill. What's to say they wont mutate some other aspect of IP law in the future just to make you liable like they did with…

Google had the opportunity to buy Sun after screwing it up and preferred not to. "Triangulation 245: James Gosling" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYw3X4RZv6Y&feature=youtu.be... If IBM had not given up to buy Sun, I am pretty sure they would have done likewise. Plenty of JVM vendors are selling their versions without getting into trouble by playing by the rules. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Java_virtual_ma…

I'm not sure this is relevant; regardless of Google's actions, trying to make APIs copyrightable is a dangerous abuse of the system.

Re: Time to look beyond Oracle's JDK

#56

Post by chrisseaton » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 9:32 AM UTC

kodablah wrote: post #22

threeseed wrote: post #3

Will be interesting once Graal is released. I've found it be at least 30% faster than the existing JDKs around for Scala development. Others have found similar results: https://medium.com/graalvm/compiling-scala-faster-with-graal...

Surely it's no coincidence that, as Oracle removes differences between its JDK and OpenJDK, that they are throwing their weight behind this non-community project, with an enterprise version. Between sunsetting community owned Nashorn in favor of Graal solution to giving tools to OpenJDK presumably with fewer of their own maintainers, the resource shift is clear. Not that it's wrong or even nefarious, but devs need to…

> this non-community project

What do you mean by non-community?

Graal is developed by a large community of people at Oracle, other companies and universities.

Re: Time to look beyond Oracle's JDK

#57

Post by pjmlp » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 9:33 AM UTC

jirkapinkas wrote: post #50

pjmlp wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

JRE is on its way out. Thanks to Java modules, jlinker and packager tool, the idea is that you just distribute everything together.

Except on server. JRE on server will still be a thing (at least in forseeable future). https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/understanding-t...

Nothing prevents you to deploy everything together.

We have done it multiple times.

Re: Time to look beyond Oracle's JDK

#58

Post by pjmlp » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 9:33 AM UTC

jirkapinkas wrote: post #52

pjmlp wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"jlink" https://docs.oracle.com/javase/10/tools/jlink.htm#JSWOR- GUID-CECAC52B-CFEE-46CB-8166-F17A8E9280E9 "Self-Contained Application Packaging" https://docs.oracle.com/javase/10/deploy/self-contained-appl... "JLINK in Java-9" https://blog.knoldus.com/jlink-in-java-9/ "Using Java 9 Modularization to Ship Zero-Dependency Native Apps" https://steveperkins.com/using-java-9-modularization-to-ship...

Unfortunately it will take several years until you will be able to modularize server Java application. Right now the ecosystem just isn’t ready.

Nothing prevents you to deploy everything together.

We have done it multiple times.

Re: Time to look beyond Oracle's JDK

#59

Post by mnd999 » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 9:35 AM UTC

I tend to go with the Oracle VM because of the profiler (Java Mission Control). Does OpenJDK now have a credible alternative?

Re: Time to look beyond Oracle's JDK

#60

Post by jirkapinkas » Sun, Sep 09, 2018, 9:47 AM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #58

jirkapinkas wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately it will take several years until you will be able to modularize server Java application. Right now the ecosystem just isn’t ready.

Nothing prevents you to deploy everything together. We have done it multiple times.

How do you solve issue that in order to use jlink every dependency must have explicit module name? Also do you use Spring Boot with modules? (Last time I tried to make it work I failed miserably, but it was a long time ago ...).