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Surprising hidden order unites prime numbers and crystal-like materials

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21–30 of 41 posts

Re: Surprising hidden order unites prime numbers and crystal-like materials

#21
I don't find it at all surprising that we find a natural occurrence of prime number patterns in nature. It makes perfect sense to find them in crystals if you think about it for a while.

First remember that 'primeness' is not really a property of a number, it's the absence of the property of being composite. "Can only be divided..." meaning "Can't be divided..." meaning "Not composite."

Second crystals are formed by repeating patterns. What happens if you compose a pattern from many repeating patterns and overlay them? There would be 'features' where the patterns don't overlap.

Do papers try to make things seem difficult, exciting and mysterious on purpose?

Re: Surprising hidden order unites prime numbers and crystal-like materials

#22

I don't find it at all surprising that we find a natural occurrence of prime number patterns in nature. It makes perfect sense to find them in crystals if you think about it for a while. First remember that 'primeness' is not really a property of a number, it's the absence of the property of being composite. "Can only be divided..." meaning "Can't be divided..." meaning "Not composite." Second crystals are formed by…

> First remember that 'primeness' is not really a property of a number, it's the absence of the property of being composite.

What do you mean by this? What do you believe a "property" is?

> Do papers try to make things seem difficult, exciting and mysterious on purpose?

Yes, being surprising/exciting is a criterion for being published.

Re: Surprising hidden order unites prime numbers and crystal-like materials

#24
post #10
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s the non-factorability of primes that is important. Primes by definition have two, and only two factors. The difficulty of factoring a number which is the product of two large primes is the important bit.

I think the usual abstract algebra definition is one factor: itself. 1 is not considered a factor so that prime factorizations are unique, otherwise you could tack on an infinity of ones. Also Möbius becomes strange with infty factors.

The abstract algebra definition is that p is a prime if whenever p divides a product ab then p divides at least one of a and b.

Having no proper factors is the definition of an irreducible element.

The two definitions agree for the integers and nice algebraic structure (UFDs) but there are algebraic structures in which they are not the same which explains why there are two differenr definitions and names in abstract algebra

Re: Surprising hidden order unites prime numbers and crystal-like materials

#25

I don't find it at all surprising that we find a natural occurrence of prime number patterns in nature. It makes perfect sense to find them in crystals if you think about it for a while. First remember that 'primeness' is not really a property of a number, it's the absence of the property of being composite. "Can only be divided..." meaning "Can't be divided..." meaning "Not composite." Second crystals are formed by…

> First remember that 'primeness' is not really a property of a number, it's the absence of the property of being composite. What do you mean by this? What do you believe a "property" is? > Do papers try to make things seem difficult, exciting and mysterious on purpose? Yes, being surprising/exciting is a criterion for being published.

Certainly they could and are both (prime, composite) described as properties. The difference is that one can be described positively as 'having' and the other as 'not having' or 'having only'. If you've read Godel Escher Bach, it's very much in how it describes axiomatic space with 'foreground' vs 'background' when looking at the boundary of what's inside and outside a set of a given property. Compositeness is a construction. Primeness is what's outside.

A sort of example from the book that plays in the "backgroumd': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_paradox

Re: Surprising hidden order unites prime numbers and crystal-like materials

#26

A brief explanation of why primes peak at repeated multiples from a layman who's wondered why before. Obvious first example all primes above 2 are of the form 2x+1. An obvious repeating pattern of primes. You can take this a small step further. All primes above 6 are of the form 6x+1 or 6x+5. Anything else is a multiple of 2 or 3. Above 6 only 1/3 of numbers are worthy of being considered prime. This is a slightly le…

I haven't done all the math for this (I've deeply investigated the pattern for 2x+1) but it seems like this would be an obvious and intuitive result of primes. You are still generating primes from primes. Yes, you find more primes, but the computation is still dependent on primes. I'm still of the opinion that there is no complete pattern to the primes. I'm assuming the researchers do not have the intent of confusing…

I've heard this sentiment before and I don't really understand it. There's no separating physics and math. Keeping math "pure" really means keeping it "purely abstract", so it resists any kind of practical application.

Re: Surprising hidden order unites prime numbers and crystal-like materials

#27
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't done all the math for this (I've deeply investigated the pattern for 2x+1) but it seems like this would be an obvious and intuitive result of primes. You are still generating primes from primes. Yes, you find more primes, but the computation is still dependent on primes. I'm still of the opinion that there is no complete pattern to the primes. I'm assuming the researchers do not have the intent of confusing…

I've heard this sentiment before and I don't really understand it. There's no separating physics and math. Keeping math "pure" really means keeping it "purely abstract", so it resists any kind of practical application.

I don't agree with this. And honestly, I really think that depends on what foundation you rely on to think with, work with, create with, test with, and check your own tests with. Physics does not have to use itself to understand itself. Math does.

Re: Surprising hidden order unites prime numbers and crystal-like materials

#28
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't done all the math for this (I've deeply investigated the pattern for 2x+1) but it seems like this would be an obvious and intuitive result of primes. You are still generating primes from primes. Yes, you find more primes, but the computation is still dependent on primes. I'm still of the opinion that there is no complete pattern to the primes. I'm assuming the researchers do not have the intent of confusing…

I've heard this sentiment before and I don't really understand it. There's no separating physics and math. Keeping math "pure" really means keeping it "purely abstract", so it resists any kind of practical application.

> There's no separating physics and math.

There is. Even though most physics research is extremely mathematical and abstract these days, it's still ostensibly grounded in empirical science. Math is not science, it just provides useful tools and insights for studying science. Unlike physics, the disciplinary imperative of math is not to provide us with truths about this world or any other world. Its imperative is to tell us what must follow as a consequence from a given set of assumptions and definitions. This is a very important philosophical dichotomy because it means that even the most lackadaisical, abstract problems in physics (such as moonshine in high energy physics) are still grounded in something "real." Math need not be grounded to anything real; it can be decoupled from what is real or even possible entirely.

> Keeping math "pure" really means keeping it "purely abstract", so it resists any kind of practical application.

I'm not one to be elitist with regards to pure versus abstract mathematics so I sympathize with your point here. That being said, purely abstract mathematics can be extremely useful even if it doesn't ultimately relate to the real world. Consider what G.H. Hardy wrote nearly a century ago in A Mathematician's Apology:

"...both Gauss and lesser mathematicians may be justified in rejoicing that there is [number theory] at any rate...whose very remoteness from ordinary human activities should keep it gentle and clean."

If only Hardy had lived long enough to see his pure and beautiful number theory sullied with the applications to error-correcting codes and cryptography.

Re: Surprising hidden order unites prime numbers and crystal-like materials

#29
post #11

A brief explanation of why primes peak at repeated multiples from a layman who's wondered why before. Obvious first example all primes above 2 are of the form 2x+1. An obvious repeating pattern of primes. You can take this a small step further. All primes above 6 are of the form 6x+1 or 6x+5. Anything else is a multiple of 2 or 3. Above 6 only 1/3 of numbers are worthy of being considered prime. This is a slightly le…

That seems so obvious when you put it like that. (Although I guess all of mathematics is either "obvious" or "unsolved".)

I think most of what we've solved in math is not obvious.

Some accessible examples would be Fermat's Last Theorem or the four color problem.

Re: Surprising hidden order unites prime numbers and crystal-like materials

#30
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard this sentiment before and I don't really understand it. There's no separating physics and math. Keeping math "pure" really means keeping it "purely abstract", so it resists any kind of practical application.

I don't agree with this. And honestly, I really think that depends on what foundation you rely on to think with, work with, create with, test with, and check your own tests with. Physics does not have to use itself to understand itself. Math does.

> Physics does not have to use itself to understand itself.

Could you explain what you mean by that?

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