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YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

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Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#91
post #23

This was addressed more broadly in "We're building a dystopia just to make people click on ads" by Zeynep Tufekci on TED. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15891014 She remarked that Youtube's recommendation system invariably pushes people towards more extreme views on anything , not just politics. Interested in vegetarianism? Here's something about veganism. She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal…

> She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal is to make people spend as much time on a site as possible, and feeding people progressively more extreme content works for that. While I understand the attractiveness of conspiratorial hypotheses, I think there is a simple explanation that applies to recommendation systems generally: such systems are designed, overtly, to identify content the user is likely t…

[deleted]

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#92
post #23

This was addressed more broadly in "We're building a dystopia just to make people click on ads" by Zeynep Tufekci on TED. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15891014 She remarked that Youtube's recommendation system invariably pushes people towards more extreme views on anything , not just politics. Interested in vegetarianism? Here's something about veganism. She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal…

> She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal is to make people spend as much time on a site as possible, and feeding people progressively more extreme content works for that. While I understand the attractiveness of conspiratorial hypotheses, I think there is a simple explanation that applies to recommendation systems generally: such systems are designed, overtly, to identify content the user is likely t…

To have an algorithm that favors extreme content above non-extreme content because it keeps people hooked is indeed unlikely to be programmed directly.

I actually don't think it's learning personal preferences like you suggest either.

It likely is a collaborative filtering method. You get served what people "similar to you" have watched most. Similarity is based on your watching behavior. If you watched 1,2,5,6,7 and someone else 1,2,6,7,8. You will be recommended 8 as well.

It would be interesting to come up with an algorithm that suggest favorites of subgroups of viewers you don't belong to.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#93
A week ago the 'mainstream media' spoke of mobs and pograms. Yet here's Saxony's Minister President:

> He also criticized the role of the media in the reporting of the events, saying that "there was no mob, no hunt and no pogroms."

You see it's all about narrative. Yes fringe Youtube accounts may have misinformation, but so may mainstream news. In fact people flock to Youtube because the media tend to commit lies of omission or editorialize their reporting.

https://www.thelocal.de/20180905/saxonys-minister-president-...

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#94
If I understand the methodology correctly, he built a spider that recursively followed all outgoing recommendations. He was able to find fringe content when starting with mainstream content.

But is that so strange? I remember playing the "Hitler wikipedia game" where you start on a random page and try to find the Hitler page with the minimum number of clicks and it's typically possible to get there in a handful of clicks.

I don't think he has done enough to establish that there is a problem.

EDIT: On the other hand whenever I see someone respond to "source?" with a youtube video, I immediately tune out and disregard their argument as in my experience it will be either cranky, long-winded or both.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal is to make people spend as much time on a site as possible, and feeding people progressively more extreme content works for that. While I understand the attractiveness of conspiratorial hypotheses, I think there is a simple explanation that applies to recommendation systems generally: such systems are designed, overtly, to identify content the user is likely t…

To have an algorithm that favors extreme content above non-extreme content because it keeps people hooked is indeed unlikely to be programmed directly. I actually don't think it's learning personal preferences like you suggest either. It likely is a collaborative filtering method. You get served what people "similar to you" have watched most. Similarity is based on your watching behavior. If you watched 1,2,5,6,7 and…

As an interpretation of people who worked on the algorithms:

> The YouTube algorithm I worked on heavily promoted Brexit, because divisiveness is efficient for watch time, and watch time leads to ads.

https://www.twitter.com/gchaslot/status/1036323806242066432

Not clear what exactly technically he is referring to, whether your explanation fits. I suppose an algorithm that tended to cluster people together could be described as divisive.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#96
> Users searching for news on Chemnitz would be sent down a rabbit hole of misinformation and hate. And as interest in Chemnitz grew, it appears, YouTube funneled many Germans to extremist pages, whose view counts skyrocketed.

As a long time YouTube user, I've noticed this myself.

The starting video doesn't even have to be extreme. For example, watching a 5-minute daily news video on Fox News channel primes YouTube's super sensitive [$] algorithm to nudge me toward channels with considerably more ideology-driven content (like 'PragerU,' for example). Watching the next auto-recommended video primes the algorithm to an even greater extent that nudges me toward channels with even more extreme positions ('1791L,' 'Computing Forever,' for example). Rinse and repeat a few more times and you end up on channels that server as a gateway to radicalization -- channels whose names I'm not comfortable mentioning.

YouTube's algorithm needs some urgent tweaking, especially to its topic/video recommendation sensitivity. It gives more weight to recently watched content, which is fine, but should not be at the cost of previously watched content by the user.

[$] When I talk about YouTube's 'super sensitive' algorithm, I mean to say how watching even a single video on a particular subject primes it to keep showing me similar videos everywhere -- from homepage to recommendations to the auto-play ones.

P. S. The aforementioned example is also perfectly applicable for channels on the opposite end of the political-spectrum.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#97
post #23

This was addressed more broadly in "We're building a dystopia just to make people click on ads" by Zeynep Tufekci on TED. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15891014 She remarked that Youtube's recommendation system invariably pushes people towards more extreme views on anything , not just politics. Interested in vegetarianism? Here's something about veganism. She has a hypothesis it works this way because the goal…

More and more I find people who have done what I do; I don't watch TV "news" anymore and ignore almost every "news" article or posting online. Unless the headline might be a topic I'm specifically interested in and think it affects me I don't give it the time.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#98

> Users searching for news on Chemnitz would be sent down a rabbit hole of misinformation and hate. And as interest in Chemnitz grew, it appears, YouTube funneled many Germans to extremist pages, whose view counts skyrocketed. As a long time YouTube user, I've noticed this myself. The starting video doesn't even have to be extreme. For example, watching a 5-minute daily news video on Fox News channel primes YouTube's…

I very rarely use youtube on my (iOS) phone; I'm not logged into any Google account on it. Before Chemnitz started I showed some friends a video of a robot marching to "Erika" (a WW2 marching song)... a few days later I got a push notification by the Youtube app on my homescreen of a video posted in some fringe-AfD channel which was full-on propaganda.

Youtube will literally push extremist right propaganda onto peoples homescreens based on what I can only assume a single video view.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#99
Assuming the youtube recommendation algorithm is mostly just "people who watched this also watched", then couldn't the asymmetry in the recommendation graph structure simply be a relatively accurate reflection of asymmetry in the underlying data?

It seems plausible to me that the probability that people who hold "extreme" views will watch "moderate" content is lower than the probability that people who hold "moderate" views will watch "extreme" content. I haven't run any experiments, but it seems to me that a difference in probabilities like this would induce the kind of "closed group" structure being discussed on the resulting recommendation graph. The low number of steps to the closed groups shouldn't be that surprising, given previous famous results about degrees of separation in these kinds of graphs.

Re: YouTube's tendency to push everyday users toward politically extreme content

#100
Yeah humans are stupid and can’t make good decisions without government’s rules shaping what they see or don’t see.

So let’s put some ehm, people, in charge of deciding what the masses should decide...

The other problem I have with this crap is, anyone who isn’t radical in their thinking (including against annoying busybodies in the government, especially public education system) is either a psychopath or statist (or both).

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