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'Mindful people' feel less pain

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Re: 'Mindful people' feel less pain

#51
post #40
post #5

Mindfulness meditation taught me something that Haruki Murakami describes well about running: “Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.”

That's a well-known Buddhist proverb but I don't know what the textual source is, or if there is one. This is the sort of thing one can email to the Quote Investigator. Maybe I will.

Not as pithy, but this is (probably) the original source: https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn36/sn36.006.th...

It's often phrased in terms of the "first arrow" (pain) and the "second arrow" (suffering in reaction to the pain): the second arrow is optional and self-inflicted.

Re: 'Mindful people' feel less pain

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had never heard of "default mode" before this. Do you have any suggested reading on the topic, especially around creativity?

Maybe only tangentially related, but Michael Pollan's recent book about psychedelics "How To Change Your Mind" goes in-depth on this. There's something about being able to quiet the "default mode network" that lends the mind to transcendental/creative thought. The same effect can be achieved through meditation or breathwork.

Also moral tribes, by Joshua Greene. These 2 were the best books I read this year.

Re: 'Mindful people' feel less pain

#53
post #5

Mindfulness meditation taught me something that Haruki Murakami describes well about running: “Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.”

Just curious what the difference is? Suffering is your reaction to the pain? Like if you're stoic you acknowledge the pain but continue on with out suffering?

Suffering is a conscious decision, pain is triggered by an outside stimuli. Just like you can feel mad without punching a wall. Punching a wall would be an extreme example of somebody with zero self-control that reacts rather than act. It's normal to have pain or feel mad, it's not 'mindful' to react with the first impulse you get.

Re: 'Mindful people' feel less pain

#54
post #5

Mindfulness meditation taught me something that Haruki Murakami describes well about running: “Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.”

Just curious what the difference is? Suffering is your reaction to the pain? Like if you're stoic you acknowledge the pain but continue on with out suffering?

I like to think of it as follows: Pain is the throbbing headache, where suffering is wishing it would go away

Re: 'Mindful people' feel less pain

#55

> "Mindfulness is related to being aware of the present moment without too much emotional reaction or judgment," said the study's lead author, Fadel Zeidan I've always thought of the word "mindfulness" as one of those vague, new-age nonsense terms, like "psionic body energy" and "ethereal consciousness". Even given the above quoted definition, I still have no idea what it means. Does anyone know what is an example of…

May I answer through analogy to ground our discussion in a topic more familiar?

How do we define running? The expert/fit runner can:

- Run faster than those that haven’t trained.

- Run further than those that haven’t trained.

- But at some very picky level of semantics, we understand that running is the exercise and the physical adaptation it produces might be referred to as “running fitness”.

- and if we wanted, we could insist this superficial discussion barely scratches the surface, after all sprinters and ultrarunners train differently and develop dramatically different types of fitness.

- Here’s the kicker – someone might insist “so what, anyone can do that. I can run a few steps myself”. But we understand that the level of running fitness achieved by an expert runner is something beyond innate ability of someone who has not trained.

===

How do we define mindfulness?

Those who are expert/fit at (Shamatha) meditation can:

- Upon realizing they are distracted, refocus the mind or calm the emotions. This is true for both intellectual distractions (a half hour ago, an intriguing idea just came to me and I was swept away) and emotional distractions (a half hour ago, a deep depression settled in and I was swept away).

- Recognize subtle distractions as they arise in the mind, and dismiss them before they hijack their train of thought.

- But at some very picky level of semantics, we understand that (Shamatha) meditation is the exercise and the physical adaptation it produces might be referred to as “mindfulness”.

- and if we wanted, we could insist this superficial discussion barely scratches the surface, after all shamatha meditation is altogether different than metta meditation and both produce different types of fitness.

- don't be that person that says sells the topic short and says "so what, I can do that". Yes, you can. but those who have a shamatha meditation practice can do it in a way that is beyond innate ability of someone who has not trained.

Re: 'Mindful people' feel less pain

#56

If anyone is interested in developing mindfulness, I like Full Catastrophe Living by Jon Kabat-Zinn.

I've been listening to his Guided Mindfulness Meditations a few times a week. The body scan has been a phenomenal way of for me to relax into the difficult emotions and feelings I sometimes experience. Highly recommended.

Re: 'Mindful people' feel less pain

#58
post #7

I think Marvin Minsky had it right in his book The Emotion Machine (2006): From Chapter III. From Pain to Suffering >Why does the sensation called pain sometimes lead to what we call suffering? How could such a simple event distort all your other thoughts so much? This chapter proposes a theory of this: if a pain is intense and persistent enough, it will stir up a certain set of resources, and then these, in turn, ar…

Hah. There's definitely pain out there that can't be studied to oblivion. Anyone so pompous hasn't experienced, for example, a cluster headache.

Re: 'Mindful people' feel less pain

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious what the difference is? Suffering is your reaction to the pain? Like if you're stoic you acknowledge the pain but continue on with out suffering?

I think the suffering is the result of your desire for things to be different than what they are. It's natural to feel like you want a headache to go away, but it seems to me that the more I accept that this is just the way it is right now, the more I embrace the pain and accept it as a part of me, the less power it has over me. And conversely the more I try to push it away like it's some kind of monster that's tortu…

Suffering is not a desire that humans invent. It's hard-coded into every evolved creature so that the creature then goes on to do things to avoid said suffering. The source of these things that the creature is wanting is distinctly non-human.

There was no council of people who have decided that moving animals need to consume energy in the form of food, and that they would feel pain if they do not consume enough of this energy in time. Yet here it is, and every creature is enslaved by it.

Adult, well-read humans blessed with mental faculties are at times able to cheat the mental pathway and come up with ways to not have it show up at the forefront, but there's nothing self-inflicted about suffering, and assigning quasi-religious themes to this process is not doing us any favors.

Re: 'Mindful people' feel less pain

#60
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious what the difference is? Suffering is your reaction to the pain? Like if you're stoic you acknowledge the pain but continue on with out suffering?

Suffering is a conscious decision, pain is triggered by an outside stimuli. Just like you can feel mad without punching a wall. Punching a wall would be an extreme example of somebody with zero self-control that reacts rather than act. It's normal to have pain or feel mad, it's not 'mindful' to react with the first impulse you get.

> Suffering is a conscious decision

Do you think your cat won't suffer is you stop feeding it? Do you think it's making a conscious decision to suffer if it's hungry?

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