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We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

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Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#151

Post by bane »

esfandia wrote: post #139
bane wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a different kind of experience, but definitely clustered in the "feelings of intense pleasure" cluster. I'd say that musical frisson is much more of an emotionally driven feeling that encompasses a much larger part of the body. The intensity ranges all over the place from a small feeling of "nice!" to intense, almost physically disabling, feelings of absolute bliss that have left me weeping like I'd just experie…

Do you mind sharing what kind of music triggers this in you? The closest to this for me has been late 60's psychedelic music.

Yeah sure, it's a huge range of things that are paradoxically highly specific to a few moments.

Certain classical moments are pretty reliable.

For example, the first few seconds of the Paganini variation here at around 23:00 minutes. https://youtu.be/c33q87s03h4?t=1375 except not this recording. I used to have a recording of it I inherited from my great grandfather and it was that specific recording that used to send me off.

The opening of Beethoven's 7th - 2nd movement (right until the main theme changes up until about 2:30) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgHxmAsINDk

Non-classical:

The main theme of this a about 1:07 https://youtu.be/YQJSnMvIKM4?t=68

Certain long notes in this song (kind of hard to explain, but certain notes she holds in sustenato): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FrWoVC6SZ8&list=PL91bz63WYu...

This William Ackerman song has some great passages https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jles3aPfeI

Some moments in this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV9Ow4kOA4E

Asucultation by the Antidote used to be a favorite (it doesn't work anymore :() https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWs2R6W5vCc

Many of the pieces of Solar Fields' Movements album are fantastic but especially this song https://youtu.be/yQjove0nzss?t=1096

All I Need by Radiohead, especially the main bridge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LlfGrP4n6E

Mree's cover of Blood, something with her phrasing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMe_5O0mYj0

Several pieces by Steve Reich seem to hack the phenomenon for me and run just underneath the trigger: Six Pianos, Music for 18 Musicians, etc.

It can also depend on the context, some of the passages won't "work" without other surrounding song context...like the contrast of the triggering passages and the non-triggering is what sort of does it.

There's actually an entire subreddit dedicated to this, but I've not found much in other people's music that kicks it off. https://www.reddit.com/r/frisson

It's an entirely different feeling of liking music or finding it pleasurable, for which I believe I'm fairly conventional.

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#152

Post by firdak »

drblast wrote: post #144
firdak wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first one is interesting - if I heard it on the radio I wouldn't think twice about it, but seeing a video is different. Watching the guy play the guitar gives me a sense of how difficult it must be to play - which means I appreciate the music because I appreciate the technical skill of the person playing it. The second one does nothing for me - it's just dull. Can you explain how you feel when you listen to those…

Sure! When I see Derek Truck play guitar in that first video, I feel about his playing how BB King says he feels, like this was one of the best things I've ever heard. The second one has a bit of a story behind it; the girls on stage are singing their hit song they wrote about Emmylou Harris, who is a famous singer herself and is in the audience. They talk about how she inspired them to sing so it's cool they have th…

> I feel about his playing how BB King says he feels, like this was one of the best things I've ever heard.

Thanks for this, it's very interesting. I've realised that I don't really rank music in that way - I don't have favourite songs, in the same way as I have favourite books, movies etc.

> The second one has a bit of a story behind it; the girls on stage are singing their hit song they wrote about Emmylou Harris, who is a famous singer herself and is in the audience. They talk about how she inspired them to sing so it's cool they have the opportunity to play for her.

The story is cool, you're right. I understand how it would be emotional to those involved, but I found the description of the story conveyed the emotions involved more than the singing did.

> The song is very sorrowful sounding but pleasant and beautifully sung so it brings tears to my eyes.

It's well sung, but I don't find it technically impressive like the guitar playing. Perhaps because, day-to-day, we are exposed to many good vocalists but very few guitar solos?

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#153

Post by bane »

gattr wrote: post #145
bane wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a small percentage of people (maybe In some people who experience it, it can be an absolutely overwhelming experience -- like strapping your brain to wings made out of lightning bolts. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisson 2 - http://theconversation.com/why-do-only-some-people-get-skin-...

Interesting to know what it's called, thanks. I have a few pieces of music that trigger this for me, up to shivers and tears in the eyes (though not at overwhelming/lightning-bolt levels.) On the other hand, I'm utterly unresponsive to poetry.

If it makes you feel better, I've never personally run into somebody in real life who's ever admitted to this phenomenon. I think it must be rare enough, and not really spoken of by people who have it.

Childhood was very difficult, the few times I tried to explain it to me parents they thought I just found music very beautiful. It's very hard possessing something so great and never connecting with another person who can also experience it. It's like having a completely different sensory organ and describing what colors are to people who are blind from birth.

The internet has definitely helped me realize we're not alone with this thing!

(I also don't get much out of poetry and pretty much ignore lyrics in music)

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#154

Post by lbriner »

LyndsySimon wrote: post #32
lbriner wrote: post #14

I find that certain musical expressions invoke the same feeling as something very real like the feeling of seeing the New York skyline for the first time or the feeling of taking off in a light aircraft for the first time, almost as if the music was pressing the same buttons. The interesting difference is that the music buttons seem to get pressed every time I hear the same music (i.e. I never get tired of certain mu…

> the same feeling as something very real like the feeling of seeing the New York skyline for the first time I think that feeling is highly variable depending on the person. I remember the feeling I had the first time I drove over the bridge on I-40 into Memphis as an adult - the industry along the Mississippi River was awe-inspiring to me. Ugly, sure, but it also represented a huge amount of human accomplishment; it…

I'm sure the feelings are different for each person and maybe different music presses those scary buttons as much as the nice ones!

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#155

Post by screye »

bane wrote: post #153
gattr wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting to know what it's called, thanks. I have a few pieces of music that trigger this for me, up to shivers and tears in the eyes (though not at overwhelming/lightning-bolt levels.) On the other hand, I'm utterly unresponsive to poetry.

If it makes you feel better, I've never personally run into somebody in real life who's ever admitted to this phenomenon. I think it must be rare enough, and not really spoken of by people who have it. Childhood was very difficult, the few times I tried to explain it to me parents they thought I just found music very beautiful. It's very hard possessing something so great and never connecting with another person who…

Is it the feeling of unexplainable unbridled pleasure ?

I am reluctant to call it similar to an orgasm , because of the sexual connotations. While my body does not respond in a way similar to an orgasm, the "dopamine rush" (I am being liberal with the term) I get when listening to certain music is very similar.

I often have raised hair, tears in my eyes and a general lightheadedness and the biggest grin after such a moment.

First time I put it that way. Hoping it doesn't sound too creepy.

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#156

Post by crazynick4 »

yesenadam wrote: post #130
crazynick4 wrote: post #34

This article did not mention overtones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music) Combinations of frequencies that form simple integer ratios are naturally perceived as being consonant, no culture or upbringing needed. As the ratios begin to involve higher integers and become more complex, the intervals they produce are considered more dissonant. For instance, in anc…

jazz is said to approximate the scales that could be built off the '7-limit' intervals, which explains its more dissonant nature (heavy use of tritone which has a ratio of 7:5 That all sounds pretty baseless to me. is said to ? By who? (Those people who find endless patterns in the measurements of the Egyptian pyramids, maybe.) I've never heard or read that. A tritone doesn't "have a ratio of 7:5", not in the equal t…

Quoting David Doty from Just Intonation Primer (highly recommended if you can find a copy): "7:4, 7:5, and 7:6 can be identified with the flatted seventh, fifth, and third beloved of blues and jazz musicians". He may not be the most well known person to write about music theory but his understanding of the fundamentals of music/tuning/harmony is solid. Anyway, it is fairly self evident that the blues scale would not sound the way it does if it didn't have these three intervals (the others just being the fourth, fifth, and octave, which is about as basic as you can get)

As an aside, the flat third certainly has a different representation in 5-limit tuning (6:5) but both this as 7:6 are approximated by the same interval in twelve tone equal temperament.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7-limit_tuning

In the section 'Approximation using equal temperament' you can see the tritone represented as 7:5.

To be more accurate with my wording, its not that the 'tritone is 7:5', but rather what we call a tritone in 12 tone equal temperament is really an approximation of the interval 7:5. Look at the 7th and 5th notes in a harmonic series, which interval do they most closely resemble? The most basic and literal form of an interval is always the smallest possible whole integer ratio that can be used to represent that interval, in this case, 7:5.

As you mention, you can arrive at something similar by going up 6 perfect fifths, but the ratio ends up being 729:64 -> 89:64, if you take out the octave. The only way this would have musical significance is if its used as an approximation for 7:5.

Scales that are built by stringing perfect fifths do not produce a clean 'tritone', hence its relative shunning in classical music (and its absence in 5-limit tuning where the interval you mention is more of a byproduct).

It sounds like you are writing from the point of view of twelve tone equal temperament tuning as the standard by which intervals are defined, whereas I'm starting from the concept that the harmonic series is the basis of harmony and (most) tuning systems are just attempts to emulate it.

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#157

Post by LyndsySimon »

lbriner wrote: post #154
LyndsySimon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the same feeling as something very real like the feeling of seeing the New York skyline for the first time I think that feeling is highly variable depending on the person. I remember the feeling I had the first time I drove over the bridge on I-40 into Memphis as an adult - the industry along the Mississippi River was awe-inspiring to me. Ugly, sure, but it also represented a huge amount of human accomplishment; it…

I'm sure the feelings are different for each person and maybe different music presses those scary buttons as much as the nice ones!

Another commenter wondered if the feelings that music evoke are cultural or inherent. I think that's really an interesting question!

I wonder if there exists music that makes individuals feel differently based on their background and preferences, or if it goes even further - are there certain chords or progressions that don't have a consistent emotional association?

I'm not aware of any, but I'm not an expert in the field.

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#158

Post by gwern »

gwern wrote: post #104
rimunroe wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoa! I had no idea this was a thing! I'd always thought it was just some weird thing about me. I don't really get a whole lot of pleasure out of music, or get moved by music much. I almost never listen to music. When I do listen, it's usually to drown out external noise or help me focus, but in that case I usually just listen to the same song on a loop.

Whenever aphantasia (absence of visual mental imagery) or musical anhedonia ( http://www.pnas.org/content/113/46/E7337 ) come up on HN, I can count on someone to be surprised to discover that that's what they are and that when other people talked about "seeing things in their mind's eye" or being emotionally moved by a song it wasn't just another idiom or metaphor but quite literal. :) There's actually quite a lot of…

Incidentally, one thing I'd like to know about musical anhedonia, which perhaps all the anhedonics here can try out, is whether psychedelics affect it. They are famous for heightening the emotional response to music; do they work at all on anhedonics, and if so, does it bring them up to the normal level? Surely some have tried it a few times, since music is a common accompaniment on trips.

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#159

Post by bane »

screye wrote: post #155
bane wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it makes you feel better, I've never personally run into somebody in real life who's ever admitted to this phenomenon. I think it must be rare enough, and not really spoken of by people who have it. Childhood was very difficult, the few times I tried to explain it to me parents they thought I just found music very beautiful. It's very hard possessing something so great and never connecting with another person who…

Is it the feeling of unexplainable unbridled pleasure ? I am reluctant to call it similar to an orgasm , because of the sexual connotations. While my body does not respond in a way similar to an orgasm, the "dopamine rush" (I am being liberal with the term) I get when listening to certain music is very similar. I often have raised hair, tears in my eyes and a general lightheadedness and the biggest grin after such a…

Not at all, that's the feeling exactly.

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#160

Post by ConceptJunkie »

lqet wrote: post #2

Related: recent studies have shown that there are people with "musical anhedonia", and that this condition may affect 3 to 5% of the world population [1]. These people "get" music, meaning that they can learn to sing or play an instrument, remember and recognize melodies etc., but they are completely unable to receive any pleasure from it. As someone who gets a significant amount of his daily joy from listening to mu…

I'm also convinced that tone deafness is a spectrum, not a binary thing, and that a lot of people, perhaps most are at least a little bit tone deaf. Or it's possible that tone deafness is a default trait that can only be changed by being exposed to music.

The inevitable trend in pop music to becoming simpler and simpler and more homogenized to me is a symptom of the de-evolution of people's taste in music (on average) because they are not exposed to more sophisticated music, so they never develop a taste for it.

I think it's probably similar to how spelling and grammar seem to get worse every year, corresponding with the decline of reading actual books. But that may be just because I suffer from terminal Grammar Naziism and my sensitivity to it increases overtime.

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