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We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

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Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#41

Post by TangoTrotFox »

default-kramer wrote: post #21

> There is something that still rings true of Mattheson’s general idea. We do tend to associate some musical features with being uplifted and others with melancholic reflection, both of which might afford a certain subsequent pleasure to listeners. I have always wondered if we know how much of the emotion associated with music is learned from culture. To put it another way, is a sad song inherently sad? Or is it sad…

I've found myself able to easily 'feel' music played by exotic instruments I've never heard, and from different cultures I had minimal experience with or knowledge of. Chinese music in particular is far different from anything in the west yet somehow you can definitely 'feel' it. For instance check this out [1]. Minimize it to avoid visual cues from the video and I expect most can probably still 'feel' the tale that the music is telling.

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6HNj6f8xTw

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#42

Post by mesarvagya »

crazynick4 wrote: post #30
mesarvagya wrote: post #17

Its because of Dopamine. I think everyone knows this. The same is true for Social media as well.

Yes but why does some music elicit dopamine and some does not? If I just play random notes for you, even if I do it with some sense of rhythm, will your body still produce dopamine?

The theory of dopamine is that there has to be strong local connections on brain for the activity the person is being kept under. Think of a song that you initially disliked but when you hear the same thing again and again, the neural connections gets stronger. When this happens, brain will release dopamine enabling brain get its reward.

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#43

Post by Ascetik »

Because it is rightly ordered beauty (most of it) and pleasing to the intellect. The intellect delights in that which is good, beautiful and true. Certain types of music elicit a more base response, catering to the passions, such as EDM, or pop, tribal beats, etc. Other types of music cater to the intellect, such as classical, baroque, and certain types of folk and other genre's. Then you have sacred music, which is also prayer, such as gregorian chant and polyphony, these cause one to contemplate divine things.

Music is pleasurable in all these facets because it touches upon different operations of the soul, which in turn gives pleasure to the body, such as calmness or dopamine, etc.

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#44

Post by crazynick4 »

mesarvagya wrote: post #42
crazynick4 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but why does some music elicit dopamine and some does not? If I just play random notes for you, even if I do it with some sense of rhythm, will your body still produce dopamine?

The theory of dopamine is that there has to be strong local connections on brain for the activity the person is being kept under. Think of a song that you initially disliked but when you hear the same thing again and again, the neural connections gets stronger. When this happens, brain will release dopamine enabling brain get its reward.

I think there is more to it then that. By that argument alone, I should enjoy a song more, the more I listen to it. Then why do we get tired of old music and look for new music?

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#45

Post by [deleted] »

civility wrote: post #29
default-kramer wrote: post #21

> There is something that still rings true of Mattheson’s general idea. We do tend to associate some musical features with being uplifted and others with melancholic reflection, both of which might afford a certain subsequent pleasure to listeners. I have always wondered if we know how much of the emotion associated with music is learned from culture. To put it another way, is a sad song inherently sad? Or is it sad…

I have the same question about major and minor keys. It's pretty easy to play something somber in C-major, and something happy in A-minor... This is opposite to the conventional wisdom about keys, and I think it's a cultural thing. When you play them right on top of each other, the three notes which are a half step lower do seem to sound sadder in comparison, but I think that says more about descending vs ascending t…

[deleted]

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#46

Post by munificent »

lqet wrote: post #2

Related: recent studies have shown that there are people with "musical anhedonia", and that this condition may affect 3 to 5% of the world population [1]. These people "get" music, meaning that they can learn to sing or play an instrument, remember and recognize melodies etc., but they are completely unable to receive any pleasure from it. As someone who gets a significant amount of his daily joy from listening to mu…

I was riding with a new coworker to lunch. Trying to get to know him better, I asked what kind of music he likes. Music is such an important part of many people's life that this is often a good opener.

He hesitated for a while and said, "I don't know... quiet I guess?"

I think his response caused a full hard reboot of my cranial OS. It was the first time I'd ever met anyone whose relationship to music was so fundamentally different from mine.

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#47

Post by qznc »

rimunroe wrote: post #6
lqet wrote: post #2

Related: recent studies have shown that there are people with "musical anhedonia", and that this condition may affect 3 to 5% of the world population [1]. These people "get" music, meaning that they can learn to sing or play an instrument, remember and recognize melodies etc., but they are completely unable to receive any pleasure from it. As someone who gets a significant amount of his daily joy from listening to mu…

Whoa! I had no idea this was a thing! I'd always thought it was just some weird thing about me. I don't really get a whole lot of pleasure out of music, or get moved by music much. I almost never listen to music. When I do listen, it's usually to drown out external noise or help me focus, but in that case I usually just listen to the same song on a loop.

Me too.

And by the way, since HN talked about Anki a few days ago [0], this is a nice little fact which I just entered into my database. Copy&pasted the first line of the Wikipedia article and used the cloze mechanism the ask for the term and its definition. Now I will never forget about musical anhedonia anymore.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17846356

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#48

Post by gwn7 »

crazynick4 wrote: post #34

This article did not mention overtones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music) Combinations of frequencies that form simple integer ratios are naturally perceived as being consonant, no culture or upbringing needed. As the ratios begin to involve higher integers and become more complex, the intervals they produce are considered more dissonant. For instance, in anc…

Thank you for mentioning overtones. I think it's a very important factor that makes it possible to talk about a universal musical aesthetics, even if a very basic one.

> For instance, Greek music is composed by combining intervals where the integer ratios have a prime number no higher than 3 to form the scales.

You mean the classical Greek music, right? I think the system you describe is called the Pythagorean tuning.

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#49

Post by crazynick4 »

gwn7 wrote: post #48
crazynick4 wrote: post #34

This article did not mention overtones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music) Combinations of frequencies that form simple integer ratios are naturally perceived as being consonant, no culture or upbringing needed. As the ratios begin to involve higher integers and become more complex, the intervals they produce are considered more dissonant. For instance, in anc…

Thank you for mentioning overtones. I think it's a very important factor that makes it possible to talk about a universal musical aesthetics, even if a very basic one. > For instance, Greek music is composed by combining intervals where the integer ratios have a prime number no higher than 3 to form the scales. You mean the classical Greek music, right? I think the system you describe is called the Pythagorean tuning…

Yeah that's what I meant, I edited my post to clarify.

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#50

Post by exabrial »

We're able to recognize simple ratios instantly. The fact is without number the actual digits, we know they instantly simplify into a handful of fractions. That is mind blowing.

What's even more mind blowing is Adam Neely's explanation of pitch ratios and how they're related to tempo. The short incorrect explanation is if you layer beats 4:4, 5:4, 6:4 ratios (which is the ratio of pitches against the root in a major chord), then speed it up to a ridiculous frequency, our ears hear a major chord. It would seem that Tempo and Pitch are very much intertwined and our brains decipher that very quickly without evening consciously dividing the frequencies.

Major chord demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiNKlhspdKg&t=24m15

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