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We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

aeon.co

31–40 of 180 posts

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#31

Hmm, I was hoping for something more contemporary that I could relate to, but was disappointed that it focused on pieces written centuries ago...like most formal musical theory. Anyway, this passage stuck out to me: """There is something that still rings true of Mattheson’s general idea. We do tend to associate some musical features with being uplifted and others with melancholic reflection, both of which might affor…

> it's funny to me that the same ideas are masked behind hoighty-toighty music theory terminology that is used almost exclusively in reference to...music that was composed hundreds of years ago.

I'm just coming up to speed on music theory, but my impression so far is that it's reactive, not proactive. We already have music that we like; music theory is about trying to tear it down, identify why we like it, establish base principles that can be used to guide composition, and then use those to create something new. Fairly recently, this had led to "generative music".

I'm finding music theory to be useful to build a more accurate mental model of the instruments I'm playing, which I believe will eventually improve my ability to improvise and play by ear. I think that people who are musical prodigies have an intuitive understanding of those things, but I'm having to build my own understanding explicitly.

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#32
post #14

I find that certain musical expressions invoke the same feeling as something very real like the feeling of seeing the New York skyline for the first time or the feeling of taking off in a light aircraft for the first time, almost as if the music was pressing the same buttons. The interesting difference is that the music buttons seem to get pressed every time I hear the same music (i.e. I never get tired of certain mu…

> the same feeling as something very real like the feeling of seeing the New York skyline for the first time

I think that feeling is highly variable depending on the person. I remember the feeling I had the first time I drove over the bridge on I-40 into Memphis as an adult - the industry along the Mississippi River was awe-inspiring to me. Ugly, sure, but it also represented a huge amount of human accomplishment; it took thousands of years of learning, engineering, building, and improving to build those petroleum tanks and the infrastructure that they support (and that supports them).

Seeing the NYC skyline for the first time made me really anxious, almost to the point of anger. So many people in such a small area, living and working together packed so tightly. All I wanted to do was finish what I had to do there and leave as quickly as possible.

Out of curiosity - have you ever seen the Milky Way from a truly dark location with no light pollution? I think that probably inspires a very similar feeling that you've described.

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#33

Hmm, I was hoping for something more contemporary that I could relate to, but was disappointed that it focused on pieces written centuries ago...like most formal musical theory. Anyway, this passage stuck out to me: """There is something that still rings true of Mattheson’s general idea. We do tend to associate some musical features with being uplifted and others with melancholic reflection, both of which might affor…

Any of those sets on soundcloud that you know of?

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#34
This article did not mention overtones:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)

Combinations of frequencies that form simple integer ratios are naturally perceived as being consonant, no culture or upbringing needed. As the ratios begin to involve higher integers and become more complex, the intervals they produce are considered more dissonant.

For instance, in ancient Greece, the scales were constructed by combining intervals where the integer ratios have a prime number no higher than 3. The result is a very consonant but almost bland music. Something you could easily fall asleep to.

The major and minor scales from which classical music is composed are made by combining intervals with a prime no higher than 5. This adds more dissonance and makes things a bit more interesting.

Scales based around higher prime numbers (7,11,13,..) are outside the scope of mainstream music although jazz is said to approximate the scales that could be built off the '7-limit' intervals, which explains its more dissonant nature (heavy use of tritone which has a ratio of 7:5, and the 'minor seventh' approximates the interval with a ratio of 7:4).

That covers consonance, but it doesn't explain emotional affect. I think one example that is at least a part of the explanation can be seen in the distinction between the overtones and undertones.

The major scale (and more specifically the major chord) of today's western music is generally considered to be happy, confident, uplifted, etc. The major chord appears naturally in the harmonic series of overtones (any 3 notes played together whose frequency ratio is 4:5:6).

The minor chord, on the other hand, appears naturally in the undertone series which is just an inversion of the overtones (1/4:1/5:1/6). It also occurs in nature like the overtones, although less frequently.

I may have flubbed some details as I'm writing off the top of my head mostly but I think it covers the gist of how harmony can contribute to the perception of music. There is of course also the rhythm and the sense of expectations/irony involved in writing as well.

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#35

This article did not mention overtones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music) Combinations of frequencies that form simple integer ratios are naturally perceived as being consonant, no culture or upbringing needed. As the ratios begin to involve higher integers and become more complex, the intervals they produce are considered more dissonant. For instance, in anc…

> Combinations of frequencies that form simple integer ratios are naturally perceived as being consonant, no culture or upbringing needed. As the ratios begin to involve higher integers and become more complex, the intervals they produce are considered more dissonant.

This is only true for a definition of "consonant" and "dissonant" that is literally tautological. Yes, one can distinguish between consonant and dissonant, but the assignment of those as "pleasurable" and "not pleasurable" (which is the topic of the article) are incredibly culturally contextual. That is, you can construct a distinction between harmonies that one might label as consonant and dissonant, but the interpretation of that distinction is not universal. In fact, the relevance or applicability of that distinction is not even universal, because there are plenty of musical traditions where this wouldn't apply at all, and therefore couldn't be used to distinguish "pleasurable" and "not pleasurable" music.

In reality, in the grand scheme of musical traditions, the classical European model of consonant, simple integer ratios is an outlier.

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#36
post #18

Its because of Dopamine. I think everyone knows this. The same is true for Social media as well.

Isn't that like saying "because genetics" or "because chemistry" or "because biology"? It doesn't really answer the question that the article is asking.

Well I didn't meant it to be in negative way. Sorry its answering the `how` part of question not `why`, but whatever be the reason of `why`, the final thing that brain finds pleasurable is because of dopamine. For example, lets say a person like classical music but might dislike rap or metal. This is because his brain is accustomed to classical music and the more he listens to it, the more dopamine is released. However, in case of other genres, brain is not accustomed to it and thus the pleasure hormone might not work.

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#37
"Laughter (and humor) involves the gradual build-up of expectation (a model) followed by a sudden twist or anomaly that entails a change in the model -- but only as long as the new model is non-threatening -- so that there is a deflation of expectation." [1]

My theory is that music provides pleasure in the same way that we get from our hobbies & interests via "familiar surprises": from poetry through rhyme, from dance through rhythm, from movies through plot-twists. Our brains are pattern recognition systems and constantly distinguishing friend from foe, and listening to music we grew up with is a part of that "IFF" system.

The "familiar" - usually we listen to a few genres at most and stick to them throughout our life., and the "surprises" are the slight variations and nuances in a song - with the assurance that all is well - that give us our dopamine shot. This is very similar to wordplay in poetry, humor in comedy. I think they are all closely related neuronally.

[1] "The neurology and evolution of humor, laughter, and smiling: the false alarm theory" Prof. V S. RAMACHANDRAN

edit: added a reference to VSR's article and some grammar

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#38

This article did not mention overtones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overtone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music) Combinations of frequencies that form simple integer ratios are naturally perceived as being consonant, no culture or upbringing needed. As the ratios begin to involve higher integers and become more complex, the intervals they produce are considered more dissonant. For instance, in anc…

> Combinations of frequencies that form simple integer ratios are naturally perceived as being consonant, no culture or upbringing needed. As the ratios begin to involve higher integers and become more complex, the intervals they produce are considered more dissonant. This is only true for a definition of "consonant" and "dissonant" that is literally tautological. Yes, one can distinguish between consonant and disson…

I'm curious, which musical traditions favor music built on scales from dissonant intervals? Do you mean music which is more percussion oriented?

Re: We know music is pleasurable, the question is why?

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I played the viola and sang in chorus in middle school. I really enjoyed both--especially the viola--but I think my enjoyment was more of the mechanics of it rather than the actual music we were making. I also really enjoyed playing Guitar Hero in college in the same way. I've thought about taking up the guitar or piano since then, but haven't ever gotten around to it.

You sound like me, I get stuff done in dead silence. Music actually distracts me, playing songs in same loop helps out though. I still like practicing singing in the car though on the way to work, and guitar hero is fun to me too. Looking to learn to play the ukelele. I have like almost no musical intelligence, I can't remember song lyrics very well at all

It’s very normal and maybe universal for music to be distracting. The only difference is some people don’t realize it.
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