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A man who was raised by wolves

theguardian.com

11–20 of 45 posts

Re: A man who was raised by wolves

#11
What clickbait nonsense. Do people really believe this? Are people this naive?

He was raised by humans at least to the age of 7. Then he was "abandoned" and he lived by "himself" in heavily populated spain? A few miles from cordoba, madrid and other spanish cities? He wasn't raised by wolves. He lived near wolves. Using this logic, everyone in spain was "raised by wolves".

Aren't journalists supposed to be skeptical? Aren't extraordinary claims supposed to demand extraordinary evidence?

This article is on par with history channel's aliens built pyramids.

I walked through central park when I was younger. I guess that means I was raised by squirrels.

Re: A man who was raised by wolves

#12
post #8

Janer says the young boy would have projected his social needs on to the animals and imagined relationships with them. “When Pantoja says the fox laughed at him, or that he had to tell off the snake, he gives us a version of the true reality, what he believes happened – or how, at least, he explained the reality to himself,” Janer told me. “Marcos’s mind was desperate for social acceptance,” he told me, “so instead o…

Science has long established friendship as a distinctly human-human interaction consisting only of the purest non-incentivized intentions.

Some scientists, perhaps. But it sure sounds to me like a "no true friend" argument. [1]

Of course one could define "friendship" in a way that only human friendship qualifies, but that is certainly not the common definition.

We have three dogs and three cats, and every day I see behavior and interactions among them that I can only describe as friendship. Yes, between the cats and the dogs too. I think anyone watching them would call them friends, at least by any everyday meaning of the word. [2]

Scientists don't get to redefine a word that means something else in common discourse. That's not how language works. Next thing you know, they will say Pluto is not a planet!

Oops, they did, some scientists anyway. But not the science team that sent New Horizons there and brought back better pictures and more information than we ever had before. They call it a planet. [3]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendship#In_animals

[3] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/pluto-rsquo-s-sec... (Full article is behind a paywall, but the subtitle has the relevant quote.)

Re: A man who was raised by wolves

#13
post #11

What clickbait nonsense. Do people really believe this? Are people this naive? He was raised by humans at least to the age of 7. Then he was "abandoned" and he lived by "himself" in heavily populated spain? A few miles from cordoba, madrid and other spanish cities? He wasn't raised by wolves. He lived near wolves. Using this logic, everyone in spain was "raised by wolves". Aren't journalists supposed to be skeptical?…

I especially doubt so much the anecdote about the she-wolf that fed him like Mowgli (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNcBAI6iOn0). That's just what people want to hear and is totally in tune with the guy that seeks social acceptance.

Not to mention that people are in strong demand with "nature is so cool", and "human are evil" narratives where it totally fits.

Re: A man who was raised by wolves

#14
post #11

What clickbait nonsense. Do people really believe this? Are people this naive? He was raised by humans at least to the age of 7. Then he was "abandoned" and he lived by "himself" in heavily populated spain? A few miles from cordoba, madrid and other spanish cities? He wasn't raised by wolves. He lived near wolves. Using this logic, everyone in spain was "raised by wolves". Aren't journalists supposed to be skeptical?…

I especially doubt so much the anecdote about the she-wolf that fed him like Mowgli ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNcBAI6iOn0 ). That's just what people want to hear and is totally in tune with the guy that seeks social acceptance. Not to mention that people are in strong demand with "nature is so cool", and "human are evil" narratives where it totally fits.

Yeah. It's obvious that these claims are lies or at the very least exaggerated. And if they aren't lies, then we should be demanding real evidence. I don't get why people are downvoting me. Of all places, you would think that HN would be where skepticism reigns supreme.

Re: A man who was raised by wolves

#15

Janer says the young boy would have projected his social needs on to the animals and imagined relationships with them. “When Pantoja says the fox laughed at him, or that he had to tell off the snake, he gives us a version of the true reality, what he believes happened – or how, at least, he explained the reality to himself,” Janer told me. “Marcos’s mind was desperate for social acceptance,” he told me, “so instead o…

Yeah, I think that Rodríguez absolutely has the right of it here. Animal communication is "simple" in human terms, but is quite rich on its own terms. To anybody who spends quality time with animals in their own comfort zones, it is utterly damned obvious that many animals experience and are entirely competent at communicating love, friendship, curiosity, jealousy, covetousness, and many other thoughts/feelings -- and, also, that they are just as able to blur species boundaries as we are. There are varying levels of complexity to this: snakes are too simple-minded to have a sense of humour, for example, but foxes definitely do. Fox humour isn't the same as human humour, but when you anthropomorphize them, and they foxopomorphize you, there's enough overlap for an intersubjectively meaningful exchange to take place.

I think that science's unwillingness to acknowledge this has multiple roots.

The first is a religious relict of wanting to put Man at the centre of the universe. Descartes, deeply religious, believed that humans were the only beings endowed with a soul, and that therefore animals were necessarily mere automata. This became the default "scientific" dogma, to be considered true unless proven otherwise. But it really is just dogma, with no basis in either rationality or observation.

The second is the scientific requirement for experimental controls and reproducibility, which is easiest to do in a laboratory. If animals really were automata, running on instinct, then that would be fine. But they're (mostly) social creatures, formed through interaction as much as we are. If your understanding of human psychology was formed wholly through the observation of humans who spent their lives trapped in Skinner boxes, you'd form some rigorously incorrect notions of what humans are capable of. Ultimately, there's no way to to get a proper understanding of humans in a non-subjective capacity. Same goes for animals.

Re: A man who was raised by wolves

#16
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I especially doubt so much the anecdote about the she-wolf that fed him like Mowgli ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNcBAI6iOn0 ). That's just what people want to hear and is totally in tune with the guy that seeks social acceptance. Not to mention that people are in strong demand with "nature is so cool", and "human are evil" narratives where it totally fits.

Yeah. It's obvious that these claims are lies or at the very least exaggerated. And if they aren't lies, then we should be demanding real evidence. I don't get why people are downvoting me. Of all places, you would think that HN would be where skepticism reigns supreme.

That's not how skepticism works. A cursory search reveals that his case is quite well-attested to since the early 1970s, and the verifiable facts are not in dispute. What happened when he was alone in the wilderness is not verifiable, so "I won't believe it without evidence!" is a hollow and useless bellow. There are many situations in which evidence will never be available -- there were no webcams set up to observe wolf-child interactions in the mountains of Spain in the 1950s -- but that doesn't mean its untrue. A skeptical mind, in such cases, needs to rely on other faculties rather than complain about a lack of evidence.

Re: A man who was raised by wolves

#17
I would definitely not say "raised". He lived, and interacted with, humans until he was 7, which is around the age you enter school. At 7, I suspect the average human is far more intellectually advanced than the average grown wolf, so I very much doubt that there was much "raising" going on.

Re: A man who was raised by wolves

#20

I think it's interesting to understand how feral children/adults adapt into society, as this gives a glimpse of what people are actually capable of learning in extreme niche cases. I had done a fair bit of research on this topic in the past, out of sheer curiosity. Mostly to see determine what animalistic instincts are retained, if any at all, and how well someone can acclimate learning a language like English in dif…

I would also recommend reading Why We Sleep from Matthew walker. It has a lot of in depth information about how are memory works.
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