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How America Killed Transit

citylab.com

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Re: How America Killed Transit

#61

Post by lylecubed »

njarboe wrote: post #39
adrianN wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Motorist" is commonly used for people in motor vehicles. The problem with cars is that they use so much space. Not only while in transit, but especially when parked. Look at how much prime real estate is devoted to parking in typical American cities. That reduces density and makes cars more important, a vicious circle. The most liveable cities are those where little transport is needed because most things one wants…

A single passenger vehicle could have a parking footprint about 1/10th of what they currently have. My hope is that we could have electric bikes that are like a mountain bike, can go in bike lanes (at slow speed) or on the street but can go fast enough to take on a freeway.

There's no way to make ebikes safe at 70mph. Plus, quite a bit of the US is under snow 4-6 months of the year.

Re: How America Killed Transit

#62

Post by lylecubed »

BerislavLopac wrote: post #54
njarboe wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single passenger vehicle could have a parking footprint about 1/10th of what they currently have. My hope is that we could have electric bikes that are like a mountain bike, can go in bike lanes (at slow speed) or on the street but can go fast enough to take on a freeway.

I'm still disappointed that Segway hasn't become more popular as a concept.

It's too slow. You can ride a bike faster than you can ride a segway. It's healthier for you, too. And, as I said to the parent, at least half the US is under snow 4-6 months of the year. A transit system that is not 100% enclosed, heated and air conditioned is a non-starter.

Re: How America Killed Transit

#63

Post by lylecubed »

etiennemarcel wrote: post #41
cryptonector wrote: post #17

The public transit system used to be privately owned and operated. Then the cities took over and kicked out the private sector. Now we have terrible public transit. Yes, even the subways in NYC were built and operated by private companies (there were two, and they competed).

That's a very American point of view. Here in Paris, public transit is run by the state since the war and works really well. It's going to be open to private concessions in a few years (buses first, subway in 20 or 30 years) because of European regulations, I'm not sure it will change for the better...

Yes, the topic of the thread is US transit. Saying "this works fine in Europe" is at best a non-starter.

Governments are different. What works in France may not work in NYC for all sorts of reasons. For better or worse, the US federal government and most state and local governments are not good at running anything in an efficient manner.

Re: How America Killed Transit

#64

Post by Kalium »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #21
cryptonector wrote: post #17

The public transit system used to be privately owned and operated. Then the cities took over and kicked out the private sector. Now we have terrible public transit. Yes, even the subways in NYC were built and operated by private companies (there were two, and they competed).

Most european cities and countries have government run public transport or semi private monopolies running the transport. Privatization is usually singled out as the root cause of the sorry state of the rail service in e.g. the UK. Basically it leads to companies cherry picking the most lucrative routes and shutting down the rest. So, I don't think you can blame the shift from private to public for this. It's not tha…

They're trying very hard in SF! It's just that the goals Muni is incentivized to achieve might not always be in full alignment with the ones customers might prefer.

Re: How America Killed Transit

#65

Post by adrianN »

burfog wrote: post #52
laurencerowe wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What alternatives come close to the carrying capacity of fixed rail?

Roads do. Compare the size of the gap between vehicles. Fixed rail is a really inefficient use of land. Most of the time, the rail is just sitting there without a train anywhere in sight. It is normal for the rail to be idle for long periods of time. The density of a packed-full train does not make up for this. Of course, many systems are running trains that are far from being packed full.

You're comparing roads that run at full capacity to rails that are basically unused. Heavily used lines have intervals of less than two minutes between trains and the trains are absolutely packed during rush hour. No road can compete with that. Imagine these people would each occupy a car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMZhQLhcB08

Take note of the intervals between trains.

Re: How America Killed Transit

#66

Post by adrianN »

njarboe wrote: post #35
bobthepanda wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is that point to point is not scalable. Automated platoons only work in highway settings, not in urban areas where pedestrians and cyclists need to cross traffic at regular intervals very frequently. (The American experience shows that even erecting large physical barriers to crossing roads does not work.) And you can't build more roads to get out of this mess, because we have tried and tried and tried and ev…

You can scale with tunnels. I also suggested congestion pricing in my last paragraph. Having congestion pricing on highways is also a good idea because it can reveal the price people are willing to pay for uncongested travel. That gives people an idea on how much a tunnel could make and motivate spending money on building it.

You can scale a lot better if you put trains in those tunnels.

Re: How America Killed Transit

#67

Post by tokyodude »

adrianN wrote: post #30
cryptonector wrote: post #17

The public transit system used to be privately owned and operated. Then the cities took over and kicked out the private sector. Now we have terrible public transit. Yes, even the subways in NYC were built and operated by private companies (there were two, and they competed).

Public transit, like most infrastructure, shouldn't be privatized imho. We don't want infrastructure that serves only those who can pay. I'm perfectly fine with a public transit system that needs subsidies. We heavily subsidize cars by providing cheap or free parking in cities, why not public transport?

one of the best public transit in the world is often claimed to be Japan's. It was privatized and went from not functioning to the envy of the world.

Whether it would work other places I have no idea but we certainly have a data point that privatizing can work.

Re: How America Killed Transit

#68

Post by bobthepanda »

njarboe wrote: post #51
bobthepanda wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tunnels right now are way too expensive per lane mile. And you also need interchanges to connect surface with tunnels, which runs into the same space issues that exist above ground. Yes, the Boring Company is suggesting we can somehow solve this expensive tunnel problem with sleds for cars and vertical elevators, but those are all proof of concepts, and in any case they would probably be less reliable than current in…

I guess my point is that point to point, user initiated transportation is a great idea. It is what makes cities great places to live in. All the millions of possible people to interact with and become friends with, etc. I think we should try to enhance the transportation options of people, not force them to certain train stops or times of day. You could just do this by walking and elevators, but more extensive transp…

Train stops are hardly 'forcing.' Is Lyft, Uber, et. al asking people to walk a few tens of meters and clump up at stops along a route 'forcing'? Because this seems to be the conclusion that even the market-oriented, point-to-point rideshares have come to for efficient transportation after burning through lots of VC money [1]. And if you're feeling social you can interact on the train or bus. The scope of interaction while you're in your own personal aluminum bubble barreling along is much lower.

If it were significantly easier to build tunnels, someone would've done it already. Unlike space, or solar energy, or batteries, or cars, tunnels have consistent market demand, and existing technologies are not meeting that demand very well.

There is already a very lightweight, space efficient transportation point-to-point option; the bicycle. Today with current battery technology, even the crappiest bikeshare e-bikes hit 20-30mph and have a 50+ mile range. If you really need a car, just get a Zipcar or a Reachnow or a Car2Go, etc. But by no means should we continue to favor the car at great expense.

[1] - http://nymag.com/selectall/2017/06/lyft-reinvents-the-bus.ht...

Re: How America Killed Transit

#69

Post by bobthepanda »

njarboe wrote: post #39
adrianN wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Motorist" is commonly used for people in motor vehicles. The problem with cars is that they use so much space. Not only while in transit, but especially when parked. Look at how much prime real estate is devoted to parking in typical American cities. That reduces density and makes cars more important, a vicious circle. The most liveable cities are those where little transport is needed because most things one wants…

A single passenger vehicle could have a parking footprint about 1/10th of what they currently have. My hope is that we could have electric bikes that are like a mountain bike, can go in bike lanes (at slow speed) or on the street but can go fast enough to take on a freeway.

A single passenger vehicle could have this.

The (American) market has shown that people overwhelmingly do not like small personal cars when presented with other options, without the distorting effect of subsidies and tax breaks.

Re: How America Killed Transit

#70

Post by bobthepanda »

lylecubed wrote: post #61
njarboe wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single passenger vehicle could have a parking footprint about 1/10th of what they currently have. My hope is that we could have electric bikes that are like a mountain bike, can go in bike lanes (at slow speed) or on the street but can go fast enough to take on a freeway.

There's no way to make ebikes safe at 70mph. Plus, quite a bit of the US is under snow 4-6 months of the year.

You can achieve 20+% biking mode share in wintry places like Finland: https://torontoist.com/2017/02/what-toronto-can-learn-about-...
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