Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

vox.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

381–390 of 391 posts

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#381

Post by magduf »

Doxin wrote: post #373
magduf wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just high speed that makes helmets useful: you can get a brain injury just falling over when you're stopped, if you hit your head on something hard (like asphalt or concrete, which most roads and sidewalks and curbs tend to be made of). People's bodies simply were not evolved for a concrete environment. Helmets are how we deal with that.

You'd be surprised at how good people are instinctively at not bonking their head on stuff. In an ordinary bike accident -- e.g. swerving for something unexpected, and then falling -- you'll not hit your head on anything. Road rash is no fun either but you're not more likely to hit your head on a bicycle than you are when just walking around.

>In an ordinary bike accident -- e.g. swerving for something unexpected, and then falling -- you'll not hit your head on anything.

You can't say that with 100% certainty. There could be a curb there, and you might not catch yourself properly, and hit your head on it.

Sorry, but I'm not going to bet my life on your feelings of "how good people are". Putting on a helmet isn't some kind of huge burden; it's no different than wearing a seat belt in a car.

>Road rash is no fun either but you're not more likely to hit your head on a bicycle than you are when just walking around.

When you're walking around, your head isn't traveling 10-30 mph. The relative likelihood is irrelevant, what's important is velocity.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#382

Post by magduf »

_fbpt wrote: post #360
magduf wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is ignorant and insulting, since you're basically calling him a liar. My US driving test was a joke. I pulled out of a parking space, pulled up to a road, took a right turn, drive 100-200 feet to an intersection, took a right turn, then took another right turn into the same parking lot I had just left, then parked. That was my entire driving test.

The original comment is ignorant and insulting, since it's implying I'm incompetent enough to have failed a joke of a test twice.

The original comment never stated that all driving tests everywhere in the US are all a joke. Believing that is ridiculous: the US is a big place and things vary dramatically from locality to locality.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#383

Post by u801e »

mcv wrote: post #379
u801e wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and their speed difference with cars isn't remotely as big as that between cars and bikes. Cyclists can go between 10 to 20 mph. Some faster ones can go 25 to 30 mph. On a city street, you have cars going between 20 to 30 mph. On other roads, they may be going up to 40 mph. Given typical speeds, you have a 0 to 30 mph difference. On highways, there are trucks that are limited to 55 to 60 mph amongst cars that go 70…

> Cyclists can go between 10 to 20 mph. Some faster ones can go 25 to 30 mph. On a city street, you have cars going between 20 to 30 mph. On other roads, they may be going up to 40 mph. Given typical speeds, you have a 0 to 30 mph difference. Are you talking about cyclists or motorcyclists here? Racing bikes, recumbent bikes or e-bikes? Because regular cyclists do not get anywhere near those speeds. Average cycle spe…

> Are you talking about cyclists or motorcyclists here? Racing bikes, recumbent bikes or e-bikes? Because regular cyclists do not get anywhere near those speeds.

I'm talking about cyclists. On a hybrid/commuter bike, I have no problem cruising at 15 mph (and I'm middle-aged and a bit overweight rider). Most people who regularly commute can maintain speeds similar to what I can. Could you cite your source about the average speed of 15 km/h?

> Also, on highways you've got multiple lanes, allowing for easy overtaking.

There are many streets in cities that have multiple-lanes for same direction traffic.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#384

Post by jimmaswell »

rorykoehler wrote: post #366
jimmaswell wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many transfers does that bus route have? I'd prefer being able to use a smartphone/etc than having to bike all that way.

Zero transfers. It was a school bus. Cycling for 45 minutes is much more enjoyable and rewarding than using a smartphone (which didn't exist at the time)

Subjective I suppose. In high school I had a school bus ride about 40 minutes long every day to a trade school-type place you could elect to go to instead of taking some classes at the high school. I liked using the time for either web browsing, games, sleeping, or homework. I would've surely found cycling less enjoyable.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#385

Post by _fbpt »

magduf wrote: post #382
_fbpt wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original comment is ignorant and insulting, since it's implying I'm incompetent enough to have failed a joke of a test twice.

The original comment never stated that all driving tests everywhere in the US are all a joke. Believing that is ridiculous: the US is a big place and things vary dramatically from locality to locality.

"Drivers tests in the US are a joke." is referring to arbitrary driving tests, and implies any driving test (including the two I failed) is a joke.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#386

Post by magduf »

_fbpt wrote: post #385
magduf wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original comment never stated that all driving tests everywhere in the US are all a joke. Believing that is ridiculous: the US is a big place and things vary dramatically from locality to locality.

"Drivers tests in the US are a joke." is referring to arbitrary driving tests, and implies any driving test (including the two I failed) is a joke.

The guy is correct. MY driving test was a joke, and other people have testified their tests were a joke too. Therefore the statement is correct. He never said ALL driving tests in the US are a joke.

It sounds like you're taking this personally, and have some kind of issue because you failed two driving tests.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#387

Post by jschulenklopper »

> But the biggest education — while it’s not mandatory throughout the country, it’s done by most schools — is students around grade four or five, in the 10 and 11 age range, start taking cycling skills courses.

Having been raised in The Netherlands, and being educated from kindergarten till university, and having three kids older than 11 years... I've never heard about a _cycling skill course_ in Dutch schools. Sure, there a classes (part of primary school education) about traffic rules, but children learn to cycle in their play time. I guess 75% of kids know how to drive a bicycle before they're 6 years old.

> Between the ages of 11 and 12 they have to take a written exam to show that they understand the rules of the road. They also do a practical exam.

Indeed, these exist. But the only training for that practical exam that I'm aware of is that the teacher is biking the route (it is known in advance) once with the kids, like a week before that "fietsexamen".

Oh, and nowadays that exam is part of Fietsexamen Nederland (related to Veilig Verkeer Nederland?), not the Fietsersbond.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#388

Post by wink »

dstick wrote: post #49

Don’t believe the lies! All the pictures in this article show a sunny city with happy cyclists. Apart from the last 2 months this is demonstrably false since everyone who lives in the Netherlands knows that if starts to rain the second you get outside to grab your bike and a strong headwind will follow you relentlessly, even when you make a 180 turn. Those are the facts. Don’t believe this propaganda.

Having been to Amsterdam just last week I was really surprised by a) the weather (it rained intermittedly every 1-2h) and b) that only a small percentage of the cyclists seemed to be prepared for the rain.

I cycle to work most days in Munich, so the climate is roughly the same, and I have rain gear and I'm used to cycling in the rain... I couldn't imagine cycling with an umbrella, but that's a different story... Maybe I was just getting a cold, but I was freezing while being soaked just walking around in the city (with my rain jacket, didn't bring the rain pants).

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#389

Post by magduf »

cesnja wrote: post #337
magduf wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, though I ride a road bike, I wear a fairly standard MTB helmet. Really, I like the visor more than anything, but I do think it has better protection all-around. I also use MTB (Shimano SPD) pedals: they're easy to clip in and out of, and I can wear normal-looking shoes that I can actually walk normally in. The racing stuff is just ridiculous: it gets you a tiny improvement in performance at a huge penalty…

Some "racing" bike helmets are wonderful though - they block minimal airflow and are very lightweight, so you don't even notice wearing them.

Yeah, but surely that comes at a cost, of less protection for certain types of falls. See the parent's comment about mostly-exposed skull bases for instance. Personally, I'd rather have better protection even if that means a little less airflow and a few grams more mass. (Of course, you can go to an extreme here; those full-face MTB racing helmets are really too much IMO.)

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#390

Post by halbritt »

schlumpf wrote: post #370
halbritt wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. There's a myriad of reasons why this is the case. Traffic signals and signage aren't designed for cyclists. Google a little. Further, this is a false equivalence. When a cyclist fails to be diligent, the risks are fairly small. When a motorists fails to be diligent, other people die.

You are being unnecessarily abrasive. I ride the streets that I'm speaking about. San Francisco has a team of engineers who redesign road infrastructure, markings, and signage to promote safe cycling. I think they do good work and I benefit directly from their work. I think the infrastructure is better suited to cycling than your dismissive comment implies. I disagree with your characterization that the risks to moto…

San Francisco has a team of engineers who redesign road infrastructure...

They're adapting roads which were created entirely with motorists in mind in an attempt to promote safe cycling. The infrastructure is more well suited to cycling than it was previously, but I'm not sure that folks from Portland would agree. Folks from Copenhagen, most especially wouldn't agree.

In any case, it's a subjective assessment.

You disagree with my characterization and feel like the law somehow proves you right?

Yes, it is equally illegal for a motorist and a cyclist to blow a stop sign. If a motorist blows a stop sign and has a collision with another motorist, cyclist, or pedestrian, then likely outcome is injury in one of those cases, and death in the other two.

If a cyclist blows a stop sign and causes a collision, the likely outcome is that they'll end up a stain on someone else's car. It's possible they could injure, or even kill a pedestrian, which has happened all of once that I can tell.

The risk is vastly different. Bicycles aren't really ever considered to be deadly weapons.

Post reply on HN