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Java is still available at zero-cost

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101–110 of 164 posts

Re: Java is still available at zero-cost

#101

Post by on_and_off »

euske wrote: post #43

Honest question: How often do people upgrade their production language? Me: once in a decade, maybe. I'm still perfectly happy (and productive) with C# 3.5, Java 7 and Python 2. I'm grudgingly moving forward because the old toolchains are being deprecated now, but my codes aren't significantly improved because of a few fancy idioms available in a new language, and it barely affects the design decisions. Upgrading you…

I work in kotlin, I update the language several times a year, with each new stable release.

Re: Java is still available at zero-cost

#102

Post by realusername »

pjmlp wrote: post #93
realusername wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android is quickly moving away from Java to make Kotlin the default language nowadays, it's probably in part due to the Java lawsuit (and in part to add language features quicker without changing the VM).

They aren't rewriting the Java parts. Kotlin just gets an additional library to make some SDK usage a bit easier.

No indeed but they are clearly phasing out Java as the default language in the future, I don't see much plan to fully adopt Java 8 (only partial support for now) and Java 9 (no support) for Android. Since they are using their custom ART Runtime, it's not even impossible they would add VM instructions specific to Kotlin in the future (I don't have any knowledge of that yet but that would not surprise me).

Re: Java is still available at zero-cost

#103

Post by gear54rus »

no_wizard wrote: post #100
gear54rus wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, and that's why JS is moving and everyone else is biting the dust lol. Progress needs to be made and those who can't follow don't have the right to complain really. Old tools are always available because language compatibility is preserved (which, imo should also be dropped, we would have much better language as a result). We also stick to LTS (in my case node LTS)

Not to pick a fight but even with all the recent improvements I am of the opinion that it has a long way to go. There’s no explicit Abstract Base Classes, there are base objects you can’t transparently inherit from (Thinkging of promises here in particular. Why can’t I transparently override built in promises for customization? I know you can inherit from it but you can’t modify a parents constructor) and it lacks la…

That's a bit dangerous. There's good in both functional approach and type systems but I'd rather see them where they are - in TypeScript and lodash and have vanilla be as vanilla as possible. Time will tell, there's already been a case where things from framework were pulled into ES (coffeescript).

Re: Java is still available at zero-cost

#104

Post by tannhaeuser »

scarface74 wrote: post #57
projektir wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what your preferred alternative to Java is?

.Net Core. It’s maintained by a company that actually knows how to support a platform.

The alternative is, and always has been, a language and runtime lib that is spec'd in the open and has multiple implementations to choose from. Though choices have become limited. Only C, C++, and JavaScript seem to fit the bill AFAICS.

Re: Java is still available at zero-cost

#105

Post by no_wizard »

gear54rus wrote: post #103
no_wizard wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to pick a fight but even with all the recent improvements I am of the opinion that it has a long way to go. There’s no explicit Abstract Base Classes, there are base objects you can’t transparently inherit from (Thinkging of promises here in particular. Why can’t I transparently override built in promises for customization? I know you can inherit from it but you can’t modify a parents constructor) and it lacks la…

That's a bit dangerous. There's good in both functional approach and type systems but I'd rather see them where they are - in TypeScript and lodash and have vanilla be as vanilla as possible. Time will tell, there's already been a case where things from framework were pulled into ES (coffeescript).

I’m curious what you mean by dangerous? I’m having trouble discerning what you mean.

If you mean going into a functional paradigm I’d say it’s definitely a matter if taste.

However my biggest gripe is that the ECMAScript board seems intent on being all things to all people. So they half implemented classes. And they added some neat data types. But god for bid you want to override their constructors yet if I make a class I can override my constructors as one would expect in a class based language. Though forcing the new keyword onto classes wasn’t a great paradigm to keep imo. Nor do I like how static methods and properties are treated.

Also decorators are only for classes? Why does that make any sense?

It’s really screwy.

At least going the opposite direction would’ve forced correctness on a baseline.

If they want to be an OOP langsuge with classes the Standards need to embrace it more fully and I see little evidence of that

Re: Java is still available at zero-cost

#106

Post by tannhaeuser »

MBCook wrote: post #63
euske wrote: post #43

Honest question: How often do people upgrade their production language? Me: once in a decade, maybe. I'm still perfectly happy (and productive) with C# 3.5, Java 7 and Python 2. I'm grudgingly moving forward because the old toolchains are being deprecated now, but my codes aren't significantly improved because of a few fancy idioms available in a new language, and it barely affects the design decisions. Upgrading you…

Is a Java developer I’ve always been happy moving up as soon as possible, if I see a benefit. I was quite happy to move up to 1.5 for generics. Java eight was fantastic because you got streams and lambdas. Some of the updates in 10 and 11 will take bigger changes to the codebase to take advantage of. But even if you weren’t using the new features, there was basically no downside to upgrading the run time. The newer v…

More breakages are expected going forward, though. That's the whole idea of releasing early and oftenly (and having customers to pay for backward-compat). Note I'm not saying Oracle has no right to monetize Java, though it could be said what makes Java valuable is the (mostly OSS) ecosystem around it, rather than Java the language itself or the JVM.

> As a Java developer, ...

I've been developing Java for a living since almost the beginning (since 1997), but I'd seriously recommend not tying yourself to a particular language as in "Java developer". Java is but a tool among others, and I generally can work better with devs that know more than just Java, for the pragmatism and utilitarism they bring, rather than Java devs dogmatizing and bragging about the latest fad in Java idioms and libs.

Re: Java is still available at zero-cost

#107

Post by pjmlp »

realusername wrote: post #102
pjmlp wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't rewriting the Java parts. Kotlin just gets an additional library to make some SDK usage a bit easier.

No indeed but they are clearly phasing out Java as the default language in the future, I don't see much plan to fully adopt Java 8 (only partial support for now) and Java 9 (no support) for Android. Since they are using their custom ART Runtime, it's not even impossible they would add VM instructions specific to Kotlin in the future (I don't have any knowledge of that yet but that would not surprise me).

That will only happen when Android Frameworks and lower level stack gets rewriten in Kotlin.

No mention of Kotlin in Treble documentation, only Java and C++.

It is like hoping UNIX derivatives will use anything other than C on their kernels.

AOSP commit messages show initial support for Java 9 and their clamp down in reflection for private APIs done in Android P seems to be a step towards Java modules.

I see an easier path just rebooting everything with Fuchsia than having them rewriting Android in Kotlin.

Re: Java is still available at zero-cost

#108

Post by ArloL »

tannhaeuser wrote: post #106
MBCook wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is a Java developer I’ve always been happy moving up as soon as possible, if I see a benefit. I was quite happy to move up to 1.5 for generics. Java eight was fantastic because you got streams and lambdas. Some of the updates in 10 and 11 will take bigger changes to the codebase to take advantage of. But even if you weren’t using the new features, there was basically no downside to upgrading the run time. The newer v…

More breakages are expected going forward, though. That's the whole idea of releasing early and oftenly (and having customers to pay for backward-compat). Note I'm not saying Oracle has no right to monetize Java, though it could be said what makes Java valuable is the (mostly OSS) ecosystem around it, rather than Java the language itself or the JVM. > As a Java developer, ... I've been developing Java for a living si…

Actually I don't think there will be more breaking changes than there were in the past due to the new release cadence. Mark Reinhold gave a great talk about the values they try to follow when moving the platform forward: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HpbchS5kmio

This applies to the new release cadence as well. But time will tell if they will achieve their goals.

Re: Java is still available at zero-cost

#109

Post by jkaplowitz »

bearhall wrote: post #48
cdoxsey wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With Go: every release. Free performance improvements and backwards compatibility. It also doesn't require anything installed on the server, so it's just updating a ci script.

Same for us for Go. The releases have never caused any trouble and the performance improvements are nice to have. For us it’s just changing one base containers version. That being said we still use mostly Python 2 for our Python services.

If those Python services are going to last beyond 2020 and there's much risk of attackers probing for security vulnerabilities, I suggest you plan a transition to Python 3 during the remaining ~2-year support lifespan of Python 2.

It's a lot easier of a transition than it used to be. Any other support replacement language would of course also work to keep you secure, but honestly might be more transition work.

If you're a low-value target running unimportant stuff on an airgapped machine, this might not matter.

Re: Java is still available at zero-cost

#110

Post by TheAceOfHearts »

euske wrote: post #43

Honest question: How often do people upgrade their production language? Me: once in a decade, maybe. I'm still perfectly happy (and productive) with C# 3.5, Java 7 and Python 2. I'm grudgingly moving forward because the old toolchains are being deprecated now, but my codes aren't significantly improved because of a few fancy idioms available in a new language, and it barely affects the design decisions. Upgrading you…

Multiple times a year. If your system is well designed it should be trivial to move between different versions. As languages evolve they tend to get faster and fix more bugs. Your tests should catch any bugs if the new version breaks anything.

If you have performance concerns you can update a single server and see how it performs relative to the others. Once you're comfortable that everything is working well you can gradually migrate more servers until everything is running the new version.

Each service should have its language version pinned instead of relying on a single global version. That way you can upgrade projects incrementally.

If you're really worried you can keep both versions of the language installed at the same time so you can quickly revert in case something goes wrong.

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