Convincing engineers to join your team • Hacker News Board

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#21

Post by opportune » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 6:03 PM UTC

wyattk wrote: post #18

throwaway9412 wrote: post #4

Hear that everyone? "As a startup it's hard to compete with Facebook and Google compensation packages, especially for senior engineers" Also, Oracle apparently had a lot of success building out their bare metal (now cloud infrastructure) team by making uncharacteristically (for them) good offers. You can hire good people, if you're willing to pay them. Bullshit doesn't work anymore.

So are you saying that non-salary benefits are bullshit? Besides work flexibility, culture, purpose, and equity, how is a new venture supposed to compete with an entrenched monopolist that is essentially printing money (see: Alphabet)? Sure, equity is a multiplier that can return a huge amount of money with huge risk, but even equity+salary can't come near total comp offered by these juggernauts. I mean, these compan…

Either raise more funding or have technical cofounders who stay technical? You are essentially asking how they can compete with money against competitors with more money. And the answer is that they should focus on culture/flexibility/equity as you mentioned. Especially culture and flexibility, since for small orgs these can easily be set from the top. Allowing fully remote working is a great move because it allows you to widen your talent pool and potentially pay less (at least less than Bay Area market rate)

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#22

Post by larrik » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 6:04 PM UTC

ashelmire wrote: post #19

What's with the standard of doing a full day interview? Who does this work for other than fresh graduates? I don't want to spend a whole day (which I have to request off from my current employer) answering probably-silly technical puzzles as the first round interview (the 25 minute phone call doesn't really count since it sounds like just a pitch). Does a full day of whiteboarding really get you better candidates tha…

Agreed, I wouldn't consider doing a full day interview, unless I was looking to relocate and wanted to fit the whole process into a single day. As a regular job offer, it's absurd.

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#23

Post by dasmoth » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 6:06 PM UTC

sargun wrote: post #13

throwaway9412 wrote: post #4

Hear that everyone? "As a startup it's hard to compete with Facebook and Google compensation packages, especially for senior engineers" Also, Oracle apparently had a lot of success building out their bare metal (now cloud infrastructure) team by making uncharacteristically (for them) good offers. You can hire good people, if you're willing to pay them. Bullshit doesn't work anymore.

Yeah, I don’t understand why pay is so depressed. Often times, junior engineers get paid like 60-120k. I would say senior engineers usually output double, if not more, than a junior engineer. Why doesn’t pay scale with productivity? Like, maybe I'm seriously missing something. Maybe Junior engineers at other orgs are ridiculously productivity? Maybe the expectation for senior engineers is ridiculously undproductive.…

It’s called wage compression and is seen in many fields. I agree it’s somewhat perplexing, though.

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#24

Post by catfishedSlave » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 6:06 PM UTC

sigstoat wrote: post #9

atopuzov wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you tried offering other things? Like work from home, work remotely, more interesting work, various education ranging from various courses, conferences up to paid tuition at an university (and then actually giving people the time to do it)?. And please don't say you have snacks, have better working environments not snacks. As a startup you mostly expect people to work 10+h a day. It's not always about the money,…

> Have you tried offering other things? as much as employers don't want to pay you more wages, they seem even _less_ inclined to offer anything that isn't wages. respect? pfff. sooner get another 4% out of most employers. install some sound dampening anything to make the working environment nicer? madness, instead the marketing folks will pick some new colors for the walls. fire the toxic asshole who fucks up all the…

Believe it or not, I got reverse catfished by a faceless global megacorp, during the hiring process. I interviewed with half real people, half Skype interviews, and it turned out all my co-workers were the ones on Skype.

It never entered my mind that they would do something like that to me. They certainly didn’t tell me it would be that way. Being on the other end of a nonstop video chat is like living a lie somewhere inbetween telemarketer and infomercial goon.

As a developer, I could not code with a constant video feed of remote assholes chiming in for more bullshit. I quit in a matter of weeks, and I’d do it again, the same thing, every time.

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#25

Post by dfabulich » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 6:09 PM UTC

ashelmire wrote: post #19

What's with the standard of doing a full day interview? Who does this work for other than fresh graduates? I don't want to spend a whole day (which I have to request off from my current employer) answering probably-silly technical puzzles as the first round interview (the 25 minute phone call doesn't really count since it sounds like just a pitch). Does a full day of whiteboarding really get you better candidates tha…

A full day interview is standard. You grant that it's standard, right in the first sentence of your post. But you'll tell anyone who offers you a standard interview to take a hike?

This is symptomatic of a broader problem with HN comment threads on "how to interview" articles: for any given approach to interviewing, the top comment will be a middle-brow dismissal saying, "I would never interview at a place that interviewed that way." For all X.

I would never interview at a place that does whiteboarding. I would never interview at a place that gave me a take-home assignment. I would never interview at a place that asked me to pair-program on a real assignment during the interview (I should get paid for that). I would never interview at a place that asked me to work as contract-to-hire. I would never interview at a place that used HackerRank. I would never interview at a place that looks at Github profiles. I would never interview with a recruiting firm. I would never interview if contacted by a recruiter (instead of the hiring manager).

And apparently some people would refuse to interview at a place that asked you to talk to half a dozen of your potential teammates before offering you the job.

There's just no good approach.

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#26

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 6:09 PM UTC

dfabulich wrote: post #25

ashelmire wrote: post #19

What's with the standard of doing a full day interview? Who does this work for other than fresh graduates? I don't want to spend a whole day (which I have to request off from my current employer) answering probably-silly technical puzzles as the first round interview (the 25 minute phone call doesn't really count since it sounds like just a pitch). Does a full day of whiteboarding really get you better candidates tha…

A full day interview is standard. You grant that it's standard, right in the first sentence of your post. But you'll tell anyone who offers you a standard interview to take a hike? This is symptomatic of a broader problem with HN comment threads on "how to interview" articles: for any given approach to interviewing, the top comment will be a middle-brow dismissal saying, "I would never interview at a place that inter…

They're asking why it's the standard and how we could change it.

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#27

Post by opportune » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 6:09 PM UTC

ashelmire wrote: post #19

What's with the standard of doing a full day interview? Who does this work for other than fresh graduates? I don't want to spend a whole day (which I have to request off from my current employer) answering probably-silly technical puzzles as the first round interview (the 25 minute phone call doesn't really count since it sounds like just a pitch). Does a full day of whiteboarding really get you better candidates tha…

Nothing wrong with spending all day interviewing if you think you have a strong chance of the interview resulting in tens of thousands of dollars in raise/bonus/etc.

Yeah, an actual full day of interviewing is probably more than necessary, but you need to have a strong signal of your ability. I think most technical recruiting at good companies is more about avoiding the possibility of hiring someone who is bad than trying to find the best candidate ever. The business doesn’t want to spend $50k+ on recruiting+paying someone who sucks. So spending a full day on interviewing, especially if you are offering competitive compensation, just makes sense

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#28

Post by throwaway9412 » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 6:11 PM UTC

wyattk wrote: post #18

throwaway9412 wrote: post #4

Hear that everyone? "As a startup it's hard to compete with Facebook and Google compensation packages, especially for senior engineers" Also, Oracle apparently had a lot of success building out their bare metal (now cloud infrastructure) team by making uncharacteristically (for them) good offers. You can hire good people, if you're willing to pay them. Bullshit doesn't work anymore.

So are you saying that non-salary benefits are bullshit? Besides work flexibility, culture, purpose, and equity, how is a new venture supposed to compete with an entrenched monopolist that is essentially printing money (see: Alphabet)? Sure, equity is a multiplier that can return a huge amount of money with huge risk, but even equity+salary can't come near total comp offered by these juggernauts. I mean, these compan…

> So are you saying that non-salary benefits are bullshit?

I'm saying the reasons startups typically give to justify their low salaries are largely bullshit and not persuasive.

> How can a startup compete for talent against these behemoths?

Outside of paying more, they really can't compete head-to-head with the behemoths. They should really focus on hiring junior people who can't or won't work for Google/Facebook. Case in point: someone wants to work on self-driving cars but Google won't hire them to work in that group. That's someone a self-driving car startup has a shot at hiring.

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#29

Post by monksy » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 6:11 PM UTC

ashelmire wrote: post #19

What's with the standard of doing a full day interview? Who does this work for other than fresh graduates? I don't want to spend a whole day (which I have to request off from my current employer) answering probably-silly technical puzzles as the first round interview (the 25 minute phone call doesn't really count since it sounds like just a pitch). Does a full day of whiteboarding really get you better candidates tha…

If you're a serious engineer that is demonstrating consideration: 1-2hr homework doesn't exist. Attention to detail, considering corner cases, test cases, documentation, and polishing takes time.

I do agree with you the whole "let's stress him out till he fails one of the tests and then fail him" gauntlet is just annoying.

Re: Convincing engineers to join your team

#30

Post by wayne_skylar » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 6:13 PM UTC

ashelmire wrote: post #19

What's with the standard of doing a full day interview? Who does this work for other than fresh graduates? I don't want to spend a whole day (which I have to request off from my current employer) answering probably-silly technical puzzles as the first round interview (the 25 minute phone call doesn't really count since it sounds like just a pitch). Does a full day of whiteboarding really get you better candidates tha…

Yep. I got recruited for a job I was qualified for yet didn't really want with a very high paying salary. I decided to go through the process to see if there might be something that made me change my mind. They requested a full-day interview. I asked if it could be broken up into two days and they declined. So I informed them that I didn't think I would be a good fit.

There's so much bullshit that Facebook / Google et. al are responsible for in this area. All of the wannabe startups basically copied their recruiting tactics with zero understanding for why good people were drawn to them in the first place.