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Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

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Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#71
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there's the rub: "We would not need affirmative action if [reality was different]." Ergo, we need affirmative action. That is not to say we shouldn't also put significant effort into eradicating institutional prejudices, eliminating poverty, and investing in all communities. However, that effort will take generations and may never fully succeed, which means affirmative action, in its various forms, is necessary t…

Trying to force the outcome of something is never going to work. We need to fix the pipeline.

Saying there is an issue with the pipeline is he same as saying “white applicants are just better candidates”.

Now, you may be right. It’s a hypothesis. But the other hypothesis is “standard admissions criteria are not adequately measuring how good candidates are.”

One way or the other, you have to make a presumption.

My presumption is that non-white people, as a group, are just as good as white people. That’s why I support continuing to experiment with admissions criteria until we find ones that give us close to equal representation (i.e. affirmative action.)

It sounds like you disagree, you think the tests are measuring reality accurately, and it’s the non-white applicants who need to be better. Why?

This isn’t a scientific debate, it’s a philosophical one. It’s two ways of interpreting the same data.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#72
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Racism is: "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior"

Incorrect: you're probably grabbing the Webster dictionary definition. Which is made by white people. Your go to citing is an example of racsim: control the definitions to make everything better for white poeple (and make it seem like white people can be affected by racsim hah!). This is probably the first time you've heard this fact: racism is systematic, instutionalized, collective, cultural, social oppression of p…

Non-white people can go back to wherever they came from if they're so uncomfortable in the first world.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#73
I think a lot of this boils down to where the problem can be solved.

With AA, universities and companies have decided that rather than wait for education reform to streak across the US and guarantee proper funding and adequate education regardless of income, they will seek out those with the potential to do great things regardless of their test scores etc.

They have decided to solve the problem in the portion that affects them: aka not solving the root but simply getting different types of applicants in that they think are valuable.

I think the grand solution is to go back and reform education, which I think most agree on. But for now, companies and universities are doing really the only thing they can, which is give students and applicants opportunities that they have not been given earlier in their lives.

Also in the end I believe that most people can do most jobs once you get training. Most jobs are specialized enough to train someone directly and college is meant to learn anyway so if Harvard wants to admit people of various socio economic backgrounds in favor of not admitting solely the top, I think that'd be better for them in the long run. Especially since the metrics for success are measured as if everyone is in the white top-middle class.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#74
post #26

Setting the racial aspect to one side, is there anything of value in "admissions readers" in a gargantuan administrative bureaucracy rating young kids on their "likability"?

People skills are helpful to success. I can testify to that as someone with insufficient amounts.

The parent comment seems to be emphasizing the point that bureaucrats who have never met/interviewed the students shouldn't be the ones deciding which students have the potential to develop positive people skills. Their alleged leaning on stereotypes to make those decisions is unsurprising given such constraints.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#75
post #24
post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

Throwing money at education doesn't fix anything. Washington, DC is a fine example. The worst performing school districts with the most money spent.

A popular but not entirely accurate Fox News talking point.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#76
post #12

Harvard (and some other schools) used to apply similar subjective criteria to limit the number of Jewish students. Since there is no real legal definition of race, applicants who might be disadvantaged by this policy are free to select whichever answer on the "What is your race?" question they want. If the system is unfair, there's nothing immoral about gaming it.

Almost all the ivy leagues have in person interviews... Also are people supposed to fake their names?

https://nypost.com/2015/04/12/mindy-kalings-brother-explains...

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assumption is wrong. Even if there is no legacy based admissions, even if every school district in America received proper funding for everything, Black students will still have significantly low educational attainment and achievement. It is because the extremely high percentage of Black kids living under single parenthood family [1], and there is no educational / societal intervention can reverse its impact on…

> Your assumption is wrong Perhaps... > It is because the extremely high percentage of Black kids living under single parenthood family [1] This is wildly unsourced - what data do you have (ideally across nations/racial categories) for this?

This is such a well known fact that calling it unsourced is like calling a claim that the sun rises in the east unsourced.

https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/107-children-in...

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assumption is wrong. Even if there is no legacy based admissions, even if every school district in America received proper funding for everything, Black students will still have significantly low educational attainment and achievement. It is because the extremely high percentage of Black kids living under single parenthood family [1], and there is no educational / societal intervention can reverse its impact on…

> Your assumption is wrong Perhaps... > It is because the extremely high percentage of Black kids living under single parenthood family [1] This is wildly unsourced - what data do you have (ideally across nations/racial categories) for this?

[deleted]

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assumption is wrong. Even if there is no legacy based admissions, even if every school district in America received proper funding for everything, Black students will still have significantly low educational attainment and achievement. It is because the extremely high percentage of Black kids living under single parenthood family [1], and there is no educational / societal intervention can reverse its impact on…

> Your assumption is wrong Perhaps... > It is because the extremely high percentage of Black kids living under single parenthood family [1] This is wildly unsourced - what data do you have (ideally across nations/racial categories) for this?

According to the link, 65.3% of black kids live in single parent families vs 34.8% of all kids living in single parent families. This is for America only, which is the context of this story and this thread.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#80
post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

Definitely low hanging fruit nevertheless I think it is a small step in the right direction. I would definitely like to see a more parental income based AA. Take the proverbial Black applicant whose parents are dentists, versus the proverbial Asian applicant whose parents emigrated and own a struggling restaurant. Who would rank higher on the AA scale? We know the answer. The other changes you mentioned are way more…

Going to an income basis would make me go from 100% opposed to AA to 100% supportive.
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