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Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

nytimes.com

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Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#681

Post by mike10010100 »

sdrinf wrote: post #514
zapita wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In way of a reply, I will juxtapose two quotes from your post above. I think it preserves context, but please tell me if you think I left out something important. Quote 1: > This line of reasoning is implicitely making the false equalence of "everyone who isn't with me is, by default, against me" Quote 2: > Anyone who forces me using the reasoning above, is, by default, an enemy of mine

> please tell me if you think I left out something important. You did: the position of neutrality. The position of not taking a stance either way. The position of actually doing stuff, like, in the real world, orthogonal to that of politics. The area outside of politics. I observe, based on your comment 3 above, that you consider politics as all-encompassing. I reply: politics, as practiced currently, is a virus, whi…

> You did: the position of neutrality. The position of not taking a stance either way. The position of actually doing stuff, like, in the real world, orthogonal to that of politics. The area outside of politics.

Everything is political. Pretending it isn't is a luxury that you yourself have, as a person who is privileged enough that they aren't in any way forced to think about the politics of any action they take.

> politics, as practiced currently, is a virus

Again, it always was. You were just privileged enough that you could safely ignore it without it impacting any part of your life.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#682

Post by mike10010100 »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #586
RandomInteger4 wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rather than speaking in generalities, can you specify particular political positions that you feel have been forced upon you?

I'm not the one you're asking, but... I'm a conservative Christian. I believe that homosexuality is a sin. The one co-worker who I knew was gay, I told him that straight out. I also continued to work with him, and kept him as my friend. (Lots of my friends are sinners. For that matter, so am I.) I continued to be someone he felt he could confide in - he'd come talk to me when he needed to gripe, because he knew he co…

> But if the diversity training moves on to "you should have a positive view of gay marriage" or some such

So, again, the concern is of a hypothetical nature.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#683

Post by mike10010100 »

philwelch wrote: post #603
aluren wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean any offense, but it has been my experience that people who can afford to "put politics aside", so to speak, are people from demographics who didn't have politics "happen" to them. When you are gay or trans and a significant chunk of people find your mere existence revolting, when you are black and a significant chunk of people believe you are innately less intelligent and more prone to violence, when you…

> When you are gay or trans and a significant chunk of people find your mere existence revolting, when you are black and a significant chunk of people believe you are innately less intelligent and more prone to violence, when you are a woman and a significant chunk of people believe you have no business starting a career or working in tech or people don't believe you when you claim to have been sexually assaulted, it…

> I've never seen any of these ideas openly expressed in the workplace, or for that matter, anywhere.

Probably because none of them apply to you.

> The ideas you're talking about aren't even the ideas being expressed by anyone of importance

You need only look at the president of the United States (or the GOP running for governor in Florida) to see that these ideas are expressed by a ton of people who have power.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#684

Post by mike10010100 »

philwelch wrote: post #635
methodover wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never seen any of these ideas openly expressed in the workplace, or for that matter, anywhere. Animus against minorities is real. It's not made up. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it isn't real. Is this animus experienced by every member of every minority for every waking moment? No, that was a bit of an exaggeration, sure. But the animus is definitely not zero, like you suggest. You might benefi…

I’m not saying that animus doesn’t exist. Overt animus shouldn’t be tolerated in the workplace and deserves social condemnation, but the existence of animus doesn’t automatically bless or justify any and every political ideology that markets itself as “anti-Xist”. I have personally experienced animus based on my sex, race, and sexuality before, but I don’t want to be in a politicized workplace just because the govern…

> the existence of animus doesn’t automatically bless or justify any and every political ideology that markets itself as “anti-Xist”.

I'm confused. How does saying "LGBTQ people deserve respect just like everyone else" somehow bless or justify another political ideology?

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#685

Post by mike10010100 »

belorn wrote: post #677
methodover wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm rolling my eyes at your "supposed minorities" comment. Women are a minority in tech, as I'm sure you know, and this is a forum that mostly targets tech. The rest of the groups that we're talking about are also minorities in the population as a whole. As to your contention, I'm still not getting it. Why don't we play a game? I list off a few things that I've known companies to do in the past as a way of reaching o…

Let me jump in in the discussion and answer why those are objectionable and how to fix them so the same objective can be achieved while not be discriminative. > 1. A company makes a prayer room available for their Muslim employees to do their daily prayers Services and gifts are from a practical point of view just different forms of bonuses given to employees. A extra room cost money to rent, and if employees are giv…

> The solution is to calculate how much the prayer room cost, divide it per employee that wish to use it, and give each employee that money to do as they wish.

No, the solution is to call it a "wellness room", and have it be open to anyone who needs it: diabetics who need to inject their insulin, nursing mothers, Muslims who need prayer time, etc.

> If you have to ask attendees or speakers if they identify as a woman, then what you are doing is explicit discrimination.

Why do the majority (men in tech) always have to insert themselves into a minority's (women in tech) space to discuss issues intrinsic to being a minority in a field? What valuable input on a subject do you believe that a member of the majority could give to members of said minority?

> If a company spend money on one group, then that is an indirect bonus to those employees who belong to that group.

It's just as much a bonus to the company, who wishes to attract more LGBT folks.

> as well as a nudist mixer can be created if both exist as groups at the company.

In most tech companies, if you wish to create a nudist group and organize a nudist mixer, you're more than free to do so, provided you can acquire a space that will allow you to be freely nude.

> Who decide which group deserve the special feature?

So the fact that it's Black History month isn't somehow deserving of this special feature?

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#686

Post by ionised »

_iyig wrote: post #620
ionised wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The UK has many sharia courts which act as marriage and divorce authorities, where women often have far fewer rights than men. (This sounds hysterical and far-right-ish, but it’s true) Point out one of these Sharia courts on Google maps please.

Five seconds in Google Maps: Islamic Sharia Council 34 Francis Rd, London E10 6PW, UK +44 20 8558 0581 https://goo.gl/maps/uVXqgkMMTYx

http://www.islamic-sharia.org/

The Islamic Sharia Council is a community centre for Muslims in the local area, offering various services.

It has nothing to do with implementing Sharia law in an extra-judicial court.

Please stop with the fear-mongering.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#687

Post by ionised »

_iyig wrote: post #673
ionised wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The UK has many sharia courts which act as marriage and divorce authorities, where women often have far fewer rights than men. (This sounds hysterical and far-right-ish, but it’s true) Point out one of these Sharia courts on Google maps please.

Also, new WSJ piece out today with a travelogue through a Islamicized UK town, including Sharia courts and ubiquitous face veiling: https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-visit-to-islamic-england-1535...

There is nothing in that article about Sharia courts. Just a sentence about some Muslim guy handing out books and talking about Sharia law.

There are no laws against that, or wearing religious clothing.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#688

Post by ThomPete »

ThomPete wrote: post #680
methodover wrote: post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We aren't talking about just accepting them we are talking about making it specific issues to fight for. Huh? I think you're missing some key words in this sentence. You're trying to say that it's inappropriate for a company to "fight for" gay acceptance? Is that it? That could have many different meanings, depending on who you ask. Why don't you show me a specific thing a SV company has done that you find objectio…

A company can do what it wants but when it decides to fight for one cause then it's ignoring others by definition or it won't be in business for long. You claimed you can fight for more things at once I am saying you can't fight for all things and thus you will be ignoring some by favoring others. In this case, it's especially absurd as those companies that are most vocal about supporting ex "gay rights" didn't have…

Here is a real problem.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/28/technology/inside-faceboo...

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#689

Post by AnimalMuppet »

wavefunction wrote: post #672
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the one you're asking, but... I'm a conservative Christian. I believe that homosexuality is a sin. The one co-worker who I knew was gay, I told him that straight out. I also continued to work with him, and kept him as my friend. (Lots of my friends are sinners. For that matter, so am I.) I continued to be someone he felt he could confide in - he'd come talk to me when he needed to gripe, because he knew he co…

Sin is not for you to judge though. That is for your G-d alone if you follow your scripture as I assume you assume you do. "He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored." Mark 3:5

I don't think that verse proves the point you're trying to make.

But yes, God is the judge. I'm not. But God has called something sin, I can safely rely on His judgment.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#690

Post by dta5003 »

wavefunction wrote: post #672
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the one you're asking, but... I'm a conservative Christian. I believe that homosexuality is a sin. The one co-worker who I knew was gay, I told him that straight out. I also continued to work with him, and kept him as my friend. (Lots of my friends are sinners. For that matter, so am I.) I continued to be someone he felt he could confide in - he'd come talk to me when he needed to gripe, because he knew he co…

Sin is not for you to judge though. That is for your G-d alone if you follow your scripture as I assume you assume you do. "He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored." Mark 3:5

He's not judging though. Judging someone and knowing how the god you believe in judges something are two different things, and it's not really fair to conflate them.

His interactions with his coworker illustrate this pretty well. Isn't that all we can ask of someone with a different view?

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