Emails while commuting 'should count as work' • Hacker News Board

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#51

Post by sandworm101 » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 2:55 PM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #33

sandworm101 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Demanding client" doesnt mean unlimited funding. i find that the most demanding ones also look most closely at their bills.

“Demanding client” is usually code for “behaves like a spoiled child because nobody dared to tell them no.” The most demanding clients I’ve witnessed were mid-level managers from MTV and Universal Music. Called for work being done on a weekend just because they felt like. The way I usually approach these discussions is “ok, you can have the feature built this weekend, this means people need to work their weekend, tha…

Then they may go elsewhere, to someone not on a 9-5 monday-friday culture. Many now space people out (ie some on a w-th weekend) so the company can provide 7-day service at normal rates. I used to work in film/tv. 7-day service is a norm.

24-hour is harder, but when you have clients across different time zones, it is also a norm. Again, with big films scattering themselves across the globe, it is expected that someone in authority picks up 24/7 because your 3am is sometimes the client's 10am.

You can charge more for this, but the client doesn't want to hear complaints. You will be judged on service rendered for a given price. The firm down the street, the one who can provide people on a sunday without overtime, will win the next contract.

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#52

Post by ptero » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 2:57 PM UTC

11eleven wrote: post #41

I feel one of the aspects of this that's not covered is: Yes while the employer may not be able to legally force you to handle emails outside of official work hours and doing so counts as working... Depending on your job, if you don't check and reply to some time sensitive emails outside of work hours, you might a) become a roadblock on someone else's project that's due soon b) be late to respond to "emergencies" and…

> if you don't check and reply to some time sensitive emails outside of work hours, you might a) become a roadblock on someone else's project that's due soon, ...

Of course, but for the vast majority of cases the right mental model is "too bad". Whoever needs you to be available after hours needs to learn how to plan and execute his work. Emergencies happen, but those should be rare; if not, wean them off or look for another employer. Being on call all the time is not healthy long term. Today's job market is very friendly to engineers; if your company does not minimize those emergencies, consider working elsewhere.

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#53

Post by Cthulhu_ » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 2:59 PM UTC

11eleven wrote: post #41

I feel one of the aspects of this that's not covered is: Yes while the employer may not be able to legally force you to handle emails outside of official work hours and doing so counts as working... Depending on your job, if you don't check and reply to some time sensitive emails outside of work hours, you might a) become a roadblock on someone else's project that's due soon b) be late to respond to "emergencies" and…

You could just bounce that back with "A lack of planning on your part doesn’t constitute an emergency on mine". If a project is due soon and needs your attention outside of work hours, it should've been planned earlier.

Yes I know that's an ideal world etc. But how did people handle that before there was email? That's right, they didn't, and it had to wait until tomorrow.

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#54

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 3:02 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #51

Xylakant wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Demanding client” is usually code for “behaves like a spoiled child because nobody dared to tell them no.” The most demanding clients I’ve witnessed were mid-level managers from MTV and Universal Music. Called for work being done on a weekend just because they felt like. The way I usually approach these discussions is “ok, you can have the feature built this weekend, this means people need to work their weekend, tha…

Then they may go elsewhere, to someone not on a 9-5 monday-friday culture. Many now space people out (ie some on a w-th weekend) so the company can provide 7-day service at normal rates. I used to work in film/tv. 7-day service is a norm. 24-hour is harder, but when you have clients across different time zones, it is also a norm. Again, with big films scattering themselves across the globe, it is expected that someon…

[deleted]

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#55

Post by Cthulhu_ » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 3:03 PM UTC

AndrewDucker wrote: post #2

Well, obviously. Doing things which are part of work counts as work is hardly an innovative statement. The question is, how did companies persuade people that they should work for free on the way into the office?

> The question is, how did companies persuade people that they should work for free on the way into the office?

That's the fun part - companies didn't, people did it to themselves. Probably started as just some people answering emails they got overnight on their morning commute. Thanks to smartphones and always on connectivity, other colleagues get a ping that there's an email. And before long you've got your employees mailing each other.

I don't think there's ever been an actual company policy that codified the expectation that people should be answering company emails in their own time.

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#56

Post by Xylakant » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 3:03 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #51

Xylakant wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Demanding client” is usually code for “behaves like a spoiled child because nobody dared to tell them no.” The most demanding clients I’ve witnessed were mid-level managers from MTV and Universal Music. Called for work being done on a weekend just because they felt like. The way I usually approach these discussions is “ok, you can have the feature built this weekend, this means people need to work their weekend, tha…

Then they may go elsewhere, to someone not on a 9-5 monday-friday culture. Many now space people out (ie some on a w-th weekend) so the company can provide 7-day service at normal rates. I used to work in film/tv. 7-day service is a norm. 24-hour is harder, but when you have clients across different time zones, it is also a norm. Again, with big films scattering themselves across the globe, it is expected that someon…

You may have misread what I wrote. I’m not at all opposed to flex time, work schedules that include the weekend, people preferring off work hours. If someone prefers to work weekends and have weekdays off, fine. If someone prefers 6x6.66 hours instead of 5x8, good with me. People that work on drilling platforms or on ships have even more extreme schedules. Still, this is all fundamentally different from constant availability for a single person.

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#57

Post by Cthulhu_ » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 3:03 PM UTC

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #26

Does this open the door for me billing my evening shower when the design finally clicks in my head?

Depends - what did you do at work while that design didn't click?

I was on HN, not doing much work worth paying for.

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#58

Post by Cthulhu_ » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 3:04 PM UTC

sxp62000 wrote: post #21

If you reply to emails before 9 and after 6, you're telling your manager/client ... hey! I am at your disposal 24/7. By the way, if your boss gave you a "work laptop" you're already screwed.

Not just your manager / client, but your direct colleagues too.

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#59

Post by caymanjim » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 3:06 PM UTC

stephengillie wrote: post #4

Please don't read/send email while driving. Use your bus/train time to study things that will help your career, at this job and the next. Don't just give that time away to your current employer for free - unless your employer is a charity. Edit: Even if you work for a charity, giving away your time for free may not be a good idea. ;)

If you're studying things that will help your career, you're working. Don't study for free either. Many employers will pay you for this time (if hourly) or credit you in other ways. If not, find a better employer. Never work for free. Your employer isn't your friend or your family.

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#60

Post by loup-vaillant » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 3:13 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #20

stephengillie wrote: post #4

Please don't read/send email while driving. Use your bus/train time to study things that will help your career, at this job and the next. Don't just give that time away to your current employer for free - unless your employer is a charity. Edit: Even if you work for a charity, giving away your time for free may not be a good idea. ;)

Use your bus/train time to study things that will help your career Or leave 45 minutes early and work those 45 minutes on the train.

That one is less socially acceptable, if at all.