Emails while commuting 'should count as work' • Hacker News Board

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#41

Post by 11eleven » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 2:35 PM UTC

I feel one of the aspects of this that's not covered is:

Yes while the employer may not be able to legally force you to handle emails outside of official work hours and doing so counts as working...

Depending on your job, if you don't check and reply to some time sensitive emails outside of work hours, you might a) become a roadblock on someone else's project that's due soon b) be late to respond to "emergencies" and this can affect how people perceive your overall effectiveness and performance.

Of course, company culture can minimize last minute requests, unrealistic deadlines, etc. to minimize these "emergencies" that need quick replies but many don't.

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#42

Post by meko » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 2:35 PM UTC

craig1f wrote: post #8

AndrewDucker wrote: post #2

Well, obviously. Doing things which are part of work counts as work is hardly an innovative statement. The question is, how did companies persuade people that they should work for free on the way into the office?

I don't think it's this black and white. First, I'm sure plenty of companies are basically stealing from their employees, but this is also situational. I answer emails and slack whenever I can. On the flip side, I get work from home privileges, I show up when I want, I leave when I want, and I get put on exciting projects instead of boring ones. People who don't check their phones after-hours cannot be trusted to lea…

Nearly all companies "steal" from their employees. If the company makes any profit whatsoever, that is surplus value which has not been paid to the employees who generated it.

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#43

Post by Xylakant » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 2:36 PM UTC

lx3459683 wrote: post #38

Xylakant wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if that single person, the hero that bears the world of this project on his sole shoulders stumbles and falls, falls ill, or simply wants to go on holidays and sit in the desert without cell reception? Stop the world? I know folks that sit on packed bags, ready to fly to Alaska and hike another 50 miles to fix failing cell infrastructure, but even they have a notion of “i’m on duty now and I’m off duty.” And on…

At least in a startup environment, the bus factor risk isn't even on the same order of magnitude as much more tangible stuff like the client walking away. Doubling your labor costs to mitigate a risk that doesn't make the top 3 is just bad business. Sometimes it's not even an option. You make a deal with your #1s that they will get the fun projects, the paid vacations when the current crisis is over, the completely f…

So you’d rather like that the employees foot the bill? Someone needs to pay for that prized 24/7. Note that you can scrounge up an on-call schedule with three people, two if you squeeze it.

Flex hours is a thing that helps, but even there must be an agreement that when you’re off, you’re off. Companies can be stuck in perceived crisis mode for years at a time.

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#44

Post by kartan » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 2:44 PM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #13

craig1f wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's this black and white. First, I'm sure plenty of companies are basically stealing from their employees, but this is also situational. I answer emails and slack whenever I can. On the flip side, I get work from home privileges, I show up when I want, I leave when I want, and I get put on exciting projects instead of boring ones. People who don't check their phones after-hours cannot be trusted to lea…

> People who don't check their phones after-hours cannot be trusted to lead projects with demanding clients. Why not? Requiring off-hour access is admitting project management failure. That’s what on-call is for, and on-call engineers and management should rotate and be paid for on-call duty. For them, it’s working hours. When I’m on call for a client, I bill _for being available_, so basically for keeping the phone…

> Requiring off-hour access is admitting project management failure.

You are completely right.

Management lack of competence is pushed down and transforms in extra working hours for everyone else. In this kind of company, people are always putting down fires instead of working strategically. That causes more fires and more extra work at any time of the day.

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#45

Post by shady-lady » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 2:45 PM UTC

briandear wrote: post #25

AndrewDucker wrote: post #2

Well, obviously. Doing things which are part of work counts as work is hardly an innovative statement. The question is, how did companies persuade people that they should work for free on the way into the office?

Most people who have answering emails as part of their job are not working for an hourly wage. The other aspect is that some of us actually like our work and want to succeed at it: we don’t see work as slavery or some kind of adversarial relationship with the “boss.” Many people actually believe in what the company is trying to do and actually care about the job. And the work has to get done at some point right? Most…

> The other aspect is that some of us actually like our work and want to succeed at it:

Work is work. Your employer pays you money to do work. If you do work outside of that, it doesn't mean anything other than you don't want/can't enforce a boundary between your work life and private life.

Also, yet another aspect is that even more of us like our work and want to succeed at it but have been around for longer than x years where the novelty of being "always on" has worn thin.

An employer taking advantage of one's lack of boundaries is bad form regardless of whether the employee can't/won't see how detrimental it can be.

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#46

Post by kapauldo » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 2:45 PM UTC

Clock watchers will always unfairly be reviewed as worse employees.

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#47

Post by 3chelon » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 2:49 PM UTC

adultSwim wrote: post #31

Commuting should count as work

That's a difficult one. I have a 2 hour commute. If I treated it as work I'd only have to spend 4 hours in the office. Not sure I'd get away with that.

On the flip side, having a long commute gets me preferential treatment re. remote working, so it's swings and roundabouts.

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#48

Post by alexanmathis » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 2:51 PM UTC

Well duh. You ARE working. That's the thing

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#49

Post by 3chelon » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 2:53 PM UTC

megablast wrote: post #37

adultSwim wrote: post #31

Commuting should count as work

Oh no, lets not reward people who do not value their time, and choose to live further from work than others.

I've lived where I live for 18 years. I've been in my current job less than a year. Does that justify pulling my kids out of school just before they do their exams so I can move house?

Where you live is not a simple choice for many of us. History of previous jobs, family commitments, schools, house prices, etc., etc... Like lots of things, it's a compromise.

Re: Emails while commuting 'should count as work'

#50

Post by lx3459683 » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 2:55 PM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #43

lx3459683 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in a startup environment, the bus factor risk isn't even on the same order of magnitude as much more tangible stuff like the client walking away. Doubling your labor costs to mitigate a risk that doesn't make the top 3 is just bad business. Sometimes it's not even an option. You make a deal with your #1s that they will get the fun projects, the paid vacations when the current crisis is over, the completely f…

So you’d rather like that the employees foot the bill? Someone needs to pay for that prized 24/7. Note that you can scrounge up an on-call schedule with three people, two if you squeeze it. Flex hours is a thing that helps, but even there must be an agreement that when you’re off, you’re off. Companies can be stuck in perceived crisis mode for years at a time.

Having been one of those #1 employees in the past, I didn't feel short changed. It was an arrangement that was beneficial for both myself and the employer. I don't know how many of us there are. But there are people who will take being on call 24/7 in exchange for full autonomy and not having to justify coming and leaving at random hours or taking leave without notice when the opportunity is there.

I had the employer pay for some of my vacations during downtime, I progressed along my career path much faster than normal employees, I was paid more than normal employees. It was a good gig.