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Bullshit Jobs

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Re: Bullshit Jobs

#171

Post by citation_please »

eitland wrote: post #132
citation_please wrote: post #37

Ah, when bullshit jobs come up, sometimes the measure is "if this person disappeared, how long would it take for the world to notice?". This article is interesting to me because it applies a slight modification, "if this task was eliminated, would systems be more efficient?". In some ways this is a good question to ask, but much like a statement in legacy code, it's sometimes unclear why a rule exists until after you…

> If only there were unit tests for real-life bureaucracy... Not called unit tests but we have something similar here in Norway: - 5 or more weeks of mandatory holidays. (both you and your boss get trouble if you don't use it.) - maternity/paternity leave (more than a year combined IIRC, and while it won't land an individual in hot water legally, -everyone including your boss expects you to take advantage of it. Oh a…

Ah, I really appreciate that you've made that connection. Given the current state of politics in the US, I'm afraid if I ever bring it up it'll be perceived as a gimmicky talking point for expanding socialist policies, but literally every engineer (or someone who's tinkered with something) knows that removing components from a system is an effective method for testing its robustness. Even more so, the worst time to figure out that your system is not robust is the exact moment when you need it to be robust.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#172

Post by skate22 »

normalhuman wrote: post #65

I am fairly convinced that bullshit jobs (and entire bullshit industries) exist as a consequence of the following things: 1) There is less and less actual work to be done due to technological progress; 2) There are economic incentives to create larger and larger organizations; 3) Society hasn't found a rational way to redistribute wealth yet. This is tragic. Entire human lives are being wasted on this dystopia of bor…

> "A rational society at our current stage of development would be celebrating job destruction, not creation."

Destruction of jobs in our current society would mean bad things for many people.

I understand what you were going for, but society is not at that point yet imo

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#173

Post by kathe-rine »

emptyfile wrote: post #42
stirlo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was like WTF at this and had to google it. From Wikipedia... "Academic staff: 2,219 Administrative staff: 12,508 excluding SHC Students: 16,430" Oh how far western civilisation as fallen to end up with the statistics above. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_University

How in the hell??? Is this considered extreme even in america?

My university is comparable to Stanford (Princeton) but has a roughly 1:1 faculty: administrator ratio (1200: to 1100).

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#174

Post by jbrun »

normalhuman wrote: post #65

I am fairly convinced that bullshit jobs (and entire bullshit industries) exist as a consequence of the following things: 1) There is less and less actual work to be done due to technological progress; 2) There are economic incentives to create larger and larger organizations; 3) Society hasn't found a rational way to redistribute wealth yet. This is tragic. Entire human lives are being wasted on this dystopia of bor…

There are no bullshit jobs. I like David Graeber very much, but he is wrong on this.

If you believe that we operate in a market economy, then by definition bullshit jobs would be removed. Government or public institutions may be less subject to the market, but even they are subject to it.

Procedures and rules are critical. Most tech people make the fundamental mistake of thinking that because their companies are small and profitable (or that they are solo entrepreneurs), then all companies can be like that. You need to look at the "real world".

Modern civilization requires very, very large organizations that are very complex. Keeping these organizations running is not all sunshine and lollipops. There are a lot of boring, but necessary jobs. See large airlines, mining companies, electrical utilities,... etc. THe modern world is big, complicated and has lots of tedious tasks that ensure your airplane (for which you got a cheap ticket) is built safely, takes off, landes, has fuel, and whose passenger tickets are priced at an insanely cheap level.

As a straightforward example, just look at the complexity of producing and distributing fossil fuels. Read Vaclav Smil.

Are there boring jobs that may one day be automated, yes. But the thing with automation is that it will not eliminate jobs, because we will just buy more stuff - this is exactly what has happened since the Industrial revolution.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#175

Post by annabellish »

skate22 wrote: post #172
normalhuman wrote: post #65

I am fairly convinced that bullshit jobs (and entire bullshit industries) exist as a consequence of the following things: 1) There is less and less actual work to be done due to technological progress; 2) There are economic incentives to create larger and larger organizations; 3) Society hasn't found a rational way to redistribute wealth yet. This is tragic. Entire human lives are being wasted on this dystopia of bor…

> "A rational society at our current stage of development would be celebrating job destruction, not creation." Destruction of jobs in our current society would mean bad things for many people. I understand what you were going for, but society is not at that point yet imo

Our current society is definitely not rational, which I inferred as the point. Our economic system is a good 80% complete nonsense, where we're essentially playing a very complicated and meaningless game with ourselves, except one with meaningful consequences for real people.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#176

Post by kamaal »

wastedhours wrote: post #90
kamaal wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not just the universities. Its all big people structures. After a while the whole point of management is to take care of themselves until the eventual decline of the structure due to inefficiency and corruption. 12.5K people managing 2.5K. Having an real worker to manager ratio of 1:5 is not inefficient, its trying really hard to be self destructive.

I think you're looking at the numbers incorrectly - the vast majority of the admin staff aren't managing the academic staff, they're providing other/different services, as well as supporting the academic staff. EDIT: I'd also like to make the point that I'm not advocating for this level of human resource, but that I've seen it from the inside and know how much of a complicated issue it is to be solved to the extent t…

That depends on how you define 'admin staff'. Do you classify Janitors, Chefs, Shuttle Drivers etc as 'admin staff'?

If so then based on how large the campus is, it could still make sense. But I doubt if those sort of jobs are covered in that term.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#177

Post by dsr_ »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #140
Jaruzel wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that these jobs are bullshit jobs, it's that commonly they are wrapped up in bullshit procedures . These procedures typically appear when there's an initiative to reduce costs. The easiest and cheapest way to employ an unskilled person to do a skilled job is to hand them a book of 'procedures' on their first day and say "Everything you need to do and know is in this Book". No time consuming cross-training re…

This is what frustrated me after reading the "E-myth" book. Apparently, the recipe for successful business is to enshrine everything in superdetailed Book of Procedures, and have employees follow its content like they were programmable automatons. Now maybe this works , but eliminating human agency like this doesn't sit well with me for some reason.

Procedures are to tell machines what to do. As long as you treat people as machines, you'll be revising the Book of Procedures.

Policies are to tell humans what the priorities are so they can use their brains to solve new problems. As long as you have new problems, write policy to guide people.

In both cases, you need good feedback in order to improve. People frequently distrust the feedback mechanisms in the Book of Procedures, because they have experience that says that those books have cycle times exceeding any reasonable amount of patience.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#178

Post by JepZ »

Well, I think Dr. Alexander is doing a great job. I mean, he is protecting the mental health of his patients by using the authority he has been given and I think that is what his job is about.

Nevertheless, he might do even better if he would recommend to his patients someone who is better qualified to help them with treating the origin of their physical problems (while still providing them with the letter they require).

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#179

Post by kamaal »

roel_v wrote: post #142
akvadrako wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You call researchers administrators?

Programmers are not researchers; lab techs are not researchers; many other people who do work for the academics are not 'academic staff' (and can't be paid as such). It's not hard to imagine what that sort of structure leads to.

The question is do you call work from lab techs, programmers etc 'administrative stuff'?

Also I doubt if it is a case where researchers just perform the main rituals and others do all the remaining work.

If that is true, then your researchers are effectively managers here. The real workers are lab techs, programmers etc.

If we have to do this, lets put the saddle on the right horse.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#180

Post by TeMPOraL »

dsr_ wrote: post #177
TeMPOraL wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what frustrated me after reading the "E-myth" book. Apparently, the recipe for successful business is to enshrine everything in superdetailed Book of Procedures, and have employees follow its content like they were programmable automatons. Now maybe this works , but eliminating human agency like this doesn't sit well with me for some reason.

Procedures are to tell machines what to do. As long as you treat people as machines, you'll be revising the Book of Procedures. Policies are to tell humans what the priorities are so they can use their brains to solve new problems. As long as you have new problems, write policy to guide people. In both cases, you need good feedback in order to improve. People frequently distrust the feedback mechanisms in the Book of…

I agree with your view. The "E-myth" book was advocating detailed procedures though, not policies - hence my frustration.
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