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Bullshit Jobs

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161–170 of 576 posts

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#161
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The thing I find really hard to understand from a business perspective is that bullshit jobs are the low hanging fruit from a cost saving perspective. Why do they persist? What drives managers, teams, companies and cultures to accept bullshit in their environment. Typically, at least in large organizations, the manager is interested in increasing, not decreasing, his budget. Since everything that happens in modern…

'But': I've not once met a manager that was thinking about his budget first and foremost. Budget thinking is always implicit and couched in other objectives of a firm. So there must be some mechanism that fails holding said manager accountable for attaining the business goals he gets his budget for. So should I then look at the controllers for failing to control? I'm really at a loss (professionally) why some manager…

Such incompetent manager (let's call him manager A) is in turn a part of his manager (one level above, let's call him B) "empire". B admitting that A's department is incompetent and is actually not doing much, and thus could really be disbanded, is not in B's interest, as it would shrink the size of his empire.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#162
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pizza delivery is not a bull-shit job. He mentions people doing this lousy job only because people are forced to hold bull-shit jobs so they can eat and then don't have time to cook for themselves. He expanded this article into a book after doing some research. His working definition of bull-shit job is that the job holder calls it a bullshit job.

> His working definition of bull-shit job is that the job holder calls it a bullshit job. That is a very subjective definition.

Yes, the new Bullshit Jobs book says:

“Final Working Definition: a bullshit job is a form of paid employment that is so completely pointless, unnecessary, or pernicious that even the employee cannot justify its existence even though, as part of the conditions of employment, the employee feels obliged to pretend that this is not the case.”

“The attentive reader may have noticed one remaining ambiguity. The definition is mainly subjective.”

Then goes on to explain that many cases are obvious: like if an office worker's spending 80% of her time making cat memes. But even in more complicated cases, you're likeliest to know best. (Not managers. The higher up you are, the more people have reasons to hide things from you.) After a couple years at the same company, normally people will learn enough of the company's secrets.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#163
This may be an unpopular opinion but I don't believe BS jobs are prevalent in the private sector. Of course, bureaucracy exists, but that is hardly a new thing. There are outliers, but this is far from the pandemic presented here.

Some of the arguments I keep hearing:

1/ I don't understand why X exists and therefore X must be a BS job. In the parent article, we read a premise that "someone invented a procedure", but the author jumps into conclusion without really understanding why are employees not allowed to bring whatever chair they wish to the office. Then he jumps to another conclusion, that nobody really cares because his psychiatrist note is usually accepted. As a manager, if my subordinate asks for a special chair, I will ask him to get a doctor's note, to see if he is serious or just bored, and to prevent all his colleagues from wanting a special chair the next day.

2/ "There is less and less actual work to be done due to technological progress." If this was true, there would be unemployment, not BS jobs.

3/ "There are economic incentives to create larger and larger organizations." True and totally unrelated. What is the argument?

4/ "Managers like to have large teams." True, and economic forces push against that. This does not explain the apparent pandemic of BS jobs (that I don't see anywhere).

etc.

If you won't mind, I will try some anecdotal evidence and jumping to conclusions myself:

5/ I have not seen many - if any - BS jobs in my IT career. Sure, it would be great to reduce state regulation but the guy in my company responsible for compliance is not doing a BS job.

6/ Automation and technology saved us from slaving in the fields and sweatshops. Driving a truck full of confectionery across the US is pretty much a BS job if you ask me. Same as "Shirley, make me 5 copies of this contract before the lunch" - on a typewriter.

7/ BS jobs pandemics is nothing else but a variation of the "Grass was greener when I was young". Developed countries (maybe with the exception of the US) have safer environments than ever, more disposable income than ever and people live longer than ever.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that these jobs are bullshit jobs, it's that commonly they are wrapped up in bullshit procedures . These procedures typically appear when there's an initiative to reduce costs. The easiest and cheapest way to employ an unskilled person to do a skilled job is to hand them a book of 'procedures' on their first day and say "Everything you need to do and know is in this Book". No time consuming cross-training re…

This is what frustrated me after reading the "E-myth" book. Apparently, the recipe for successful business is to enshrine everything in superdetailed Book of Procedures, and have employees follow its content like they were programmable automatons. Now maybe this works , but eliminating human agency like this doesn't sit well with me for some reason.

The main reason why organizations evolve to a bureaucratic mess is human agency, in particular the fact that each individual has personal interests and is motivated to achieve their personal goals. Bureaucracy is designed to restrict personal initiatives that favour the individual worker at the expense of the organization. For example, in Greece public sector workers abuse their position by expecting grafts to do their job, and they deny service to those who don't pay by giving a higher priority to everyone else. Thus, rules are put in place to restrict how prioritization is handled by public sector workers to mitigate this problem. Yet, now public sector workers are bounded to a rigid set of rules which dictates how and when a process should be processed.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#165
post #150

It looks like psychiatry, especially psychotherapy, is bullshit to a far greater extent than what was discussed in this blog post: --- For real patients, there is no evidence that the benefits of psychotherapy are greater than those of placebo treatment. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/behavioral-and-brain... (Prioleau 1983) Meta-analysis shows antidepressants to be more effective than psychotherapy. No signi…

AFAICT none of the links you give offer any support for the claim that "psychiatry is bullshit". Several, if anything, support the exact opposite (e.g "antidepressants to be more effective than psychotherapy" -- 'psychiatrist' is not a synonym of 'psychotherapist', a psychiatrist is a medical doctor specialising in mental illness, so is licensed to prescribe antidepressants). Most of the others are just not relevant…

Yes, I predominately mean psychotherapy. The links I've listed mostly just provide hints of excessive psychologizing and quackery, but it is indeed awkward when >90% of psychotherapy methods do not perform better than placebo. There seems to be quackery in the medical side of psychiatry as well, but to a lesser extent.

Here it is straight from the horse's mouth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Fi32LbXHA

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#166
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is literally the part after the comma you left out. Entropy maximization.

> Ultimately patterns (atoms, cells, people, societies, whatever) organize by efficiency, by how well they reduce energy gradients across time. Reducing energy across time is just a rewording of efficiency. It's still not a goal in and of itself, at least not in the context of a society. Going to the moon was not reducing energy gradients across time, nor 'entropy maximization' as you have reworded it.

What makes you say that? Yes, it is a goal. In fact, it appears to be THE goal, whether our human perspective likes it or not.

Societies follow the same optimization principles as everything else. If the topics of self-organization, similarity across scales and sustainability interest you, check out Geoffrey West's work at https://www.santafe.edu/people/profile/geoffrey-west (among a lot of others).

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#167

I am fairly convinced that bullshit jobs (and entire bullshit industries) exist as a consequence of the following things: 1) There is less and less actual work to be done due to technological progress; 2) There are economic incentives to create larger and larger organizations; 3) Society hasn't found a rational way to redistribute wealth yet. This is tragic. Entire human lives are being wasted on this dystopia of bor…

I've heard similar opinions to this before, and I don't think it makes sense. It's so hard for businesses to stay in business that if they could shed the bullshit jobs they would. I think technological progress is slow process and these jobs exist because they provide some competitive advantage or provide surge capacity. If they're truly bullshit and in the private sector they will eventually disappear. It can take a…

I think you overlook two important things.

One, that has been pointed out already, is that companies are not hive minds. Doesn't matter how rich and powerful you are, you have to hire layers of managements to run your organization. These managers get their share of status, power & money by managing more people. The people they manage also want to get into management, so more layers and departments will be created. You are also competing with other companies to keep your employees happy so that they keep making you richer, and for this you have to give them their share. Bullshit jobs are a wealth (and status) redistribution mechanism that works almost as a force of nature under the current state of affairs.

The second thing is that if your plan worked (companies get rid of all bullshit jobs), then society would collapse. .001% of the people would end up with 99.999% of the wealth, everyone else in abject poverty. The more technology evolved, the more extreme this inequality would become. Of course society cannot work like this, and democracies force politicians to align themselves with the interest of the general public -- to some small degree perhaps, but enough here to create enough pressure for such jobs to keep existing.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#168
I worked in an organization with lots of processes. I was in an office with no windows, a bit of a hole or maybe even oubliette. You couldn’t tell time of day, weather, etc but it was better than a cubicle.

My door opened to a 10 foot hallway with and about 5 feet down there was a large window. It was a weird L-shape and no one else’s office or cube or anything was in the hallway to nowhere. So it was kind of nice that no one walked by and it was off the beaten path.

The window in the hallway was closed with blinds. But if I opened them it was possible to get some ambient light effects so while I couldn’t see out it from inside my office, I could tell if it was day or night. So it was better.

A few weeks went by and the blinds were closed one day. That’s weird, no one comes by here. I asked some nearby coworkers if they knew who closed and why and they didn’t know. No one knew. The entire floor is probably the size of a football field and has 100 offices around the edge with 200 cubes and conference rooms and stuff in the middle. My team is probably 10 people and there’s lots of other groups.

No one I knew knew and didn’t really care. I maybe spent 2-3 minutes because I was surprised that anyone walked by here, much less cared. I opened the blinds and when about my business.

About a week later, the blinds were closed again. Weird, but again I checked and no one I knew cared. I opened them again.

3 days later, they were closed. Repeat a few times and now I was opening them every day and someone else was closing them. Weird and funny.

This went on for a few days and the blinds would close in the middle of the day. I spend about 3-6 hours out of my office doing different stuff so I come and go. So I would now open them whenever I noticed them back down during the day.

Finally, I’m in my office and I hear the metallic zip sound of blinds closing. I stick my head of of my office and say hello to someone from a different floor and group, I’ll call her Betty.

I ask Betty what’s up and she tells me that she’s closing the blinds. I ask why and she says because they are supposed to be closed. I explain why I like them open and that there’s no one else who sees this window and she again says the blinds must be down.

Interesting. I love arbitrary rules as a big board game fan. I ask about why, and she says that no building things can be changed without a business justification as required by OSHA, fire marshalls, and emergency coordinators.

I tell her that I think this wouldn’t apply to something as minor as a window blind, but assured me it’s for everything.

I try a different tack and propose that the natural state is open, and that she is actually the one who needs a justification to close. But she’s too smart for that, she produces an inventory of the building that she makes each January that clearly shows the blinds closed for the past few years.

She is not joking or being ironic. She’s serious.

So I ask how business justifications are evaluated and she says that they are submitted to her and she evaluates them. There’s no template or format and no one has ever submitted one in the 10 years she was in this role.

Wow, ok. I go ahead and tell her I’ll write one and ask how to submit them.

This is funny to me, so later that evening, I spend a few minutes and write up a justification email. It’s pretty bullshit and basically says “Window blinds open makes me happier, and thus more productive. Closed blinds reduce productivity and thus reduce organization impact. Yadda Yadda Yadda.”

It’s maybe two paragraphs. She replies that my justification is insufficient and blinds will stay closed.

This is now less funny. So I look her up in the company director. She is a random workgroup’s Secretary and is a contractor who has been in the building forever. She has contracted for three different organization, but has always sat there. She schedules appointments and orders staples and stuff for about 20 of the hundreds of people in the building. She’s on a different floor than me. There’s five floors. Her group is entirely on a different floor.

This is bizarre. With this knowledge, I resubmit a revised justification. She denies it again. I respond copying her contracting monitor or whatever you call the person who organizes the contract, pointing out this bizarre process. The contracting person is confused and responds that this is not in any contract, they don’t give a shit, and question why this is done.

Then there’s silence for via email for a few days. The contracting person responds that the blinds will stay open. I never hear from Betty again.

I moved out of that office about 5 years ago. The blinds stayed open while I was there.

About a year or two ago, I was in that building and I walked by my old area to talk to some former co-workers and noticed the blinds were down.

I gave a quick recap and the current occupant didn’t care and hadn’t noticed. But they did say that Betty was still there.

I think people get really invested in a process they think is important, but is only important to them. A co-worker called this “building imaginary castles in the sky.”

It was really cool to them, but meaningless to any observer. Sometimes it’s useful in the long run for something else, but hard to tell immediately.

There’s confusion that gets compounded and you have real stuff wrapped around it. It seems like it may be bullshit.

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#169
I did something a few months ago and pulled something in my back. Went to the doctor when the pain hadn't gone after a few days and it was exactly as described. He made me do a few movements until i triggered it, then told me i had lumbago, take some painkillers. I got home and googled lumbago, which basically told me I had back pain.

(As a side note I had some kratom, which worked wonderfully for this, better than the ibuprofen I was prescribed. Fortunately my pain went away after a few days, but I see that the DEA wants to ban kratom in the US. That would be pretty bad for many who use it for chronic pain).

Re: Bullshit Jobs

#170

I am fairly convinced that bullshit jobs (and entire bullshit industries) exist as a consequence of the following things: 1) There is less and less actual work to be done due to technological progress; 2) There are economic incentives to create larger and larger organizations; 3) Society hasn't found a rational way to redistribute wealth yet. This is tragic. Entire human lives are being wasted on this dystopia of bor…

>3) Society hasn't found a rational way to redistribute wealth yet.

I'm all in favour of us having a life of leisure or fun jobs (actor, ski explorer etc) and everyone having a basic income from the state. Sadly though the AI robots are not here and getting someone to fix your plumbing is still a pain, plus many other jobs. Maybe in the future we can go that way.

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