Lerna relicences to protest ICE • Hacker News Board

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#131

Post by jymbo » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 11:14 PM UTC

jhanschoo wrote: post #37

Benjamin_Dobell wrote: post #8

As usual, this is only valid if every contributor has agreed to the relicensing. Otherwise the project maintainers are infringing the copyright of the contributors by violating the license granted to them by each contributor. I see this all too frequently. It's scary the legal recourse people open themselves up to by not understanding licensing. That aside, I know very little about these companies involvement in "ICE…

Per my understanding, unless other wise stated, relicensing is still pretty much a fork; versions up to the relicense are still distributable under the old license. In addition, MIT permits forking under a new license.

If you can just do that, can I just be a downstream user, and as long as I have a local license that says, "This is a rolling license fork of lerna" then I can redistribute to said companies?

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#132

Post by village-idiot » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 11:26 PM UTC

LordHumungous wrote: post #130

village-idiot wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice non sequitor. Maybe ignoring context and throwing out accusations wildly is why you get so much push back? People don’t really like that, you know.

> throwing out accusations wildly I read someone else in this thread saying that "anyone who opposes undocumented immigration" is doing so because they are racist. Nice projection though.

Cool, go complain to them in that context. In this thread you’re just changing the subject and putting words in my mouth.

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#133

Post by aphelion » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 11:28 PM UTC

Passing over the politics of this decision, is there any plausible outcome that doesn't involve every organization with any sense at all forking or abandoning Lerna?

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#134

Post by jymbo » Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 11:55 PM UTC

mbo wrote: post #96

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #30

Slightly off-topic, but: anyone know where I can find a solid debate / discussion on the political issues raised by illegal immigration in the U.S.? My own views lean pretty strongly towards one end of the spectrum, and I simply can't understand why people would hold the opposite views. So I suspect I'm missing something.

If your views skew right perhaps checking out a liberal podcast like Pod Save America, or a leftist podcast Chapo Trap House or Citations Needed. If they skew left, Crowder, Shapiro, Jones or Limbaugh ought to do it. Like, these won't be "solid debate and discussion" but you'll definitely work out why people hold opposite views quickly.

no no no, Alex Jones is basically the national enquirer, and CNN basically gave up and went full Alex Jones after 2016. And now millennials who just started watching the news are actually believing that ICE is killing babies. Can we just talk honestly about it?

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#135

Post by LordHumungous » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 12:02 AM UTC

village-idiot wrote: post #132

LordHumungous wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> throwing out accusations wildly I read someone else in this thread saying that "anyone who opposes undocumented immigration" is doing so because they are racist. Nice projection though.

Cool, go complain to them in that context. In this thread you’re just changing the subject and putting words in my mouth.

>The other examples listed are not exactly good hills to die on if you want to be perceived as a serious thinker rather than a knee jerk bigot.

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#136

Post by jymbo » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 12:03 AM UTC

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #88

DubiousPusher wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know a good resource but I think it largely comes down to how you see someone who commits a crime or breaks a rule. People on the right tend to see everyone as capable of following all the rules. To break them is a clear choice which has consequences. People who break the law or rules suffer from a character flaw. If a lot of people are breaking the law or a rule then there is some moral breakdown in society…

That's a great articulation of one way to view the issue, thanks! I'd love to hear from people across the political spectrum as to whether or not your model seems accurate w.r.t. their own personal views on the subject. I.e., not whether or not they think your model accurately describes the people with whom they disagree on this topic. Just whether or not they feel it accurately captures their own view.

Here's another view: A disturbing proportion of the left have been brainwashed into thinking that their president is a russian spy. Once you understand that, it starts to make more sense.

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#137

Post by contextfree » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 12:21 AM UTC

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #38

1. Put said line in license: The following license shall not be granted to the following entities or any subsidiary thereof due to their collaboration with US Immigration and Customs Enforcement ("ICE").... 2. Hosts said code on Github 3. Github is owned fully by Microsoft 4. Repo invalidates itself due to using free goods paid in part by ICE, thereby becoming a subsidiary.

(3) is still false at the present moment

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#138

Post by village-idiot » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 12:46 AM UTC

LordHumungous wrote: post #135

village-idiot wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool, go complain to them in that context. In this thread you’re just changing the subject and putting words in my mouth.

>The other examples listed are not exactly good hills to die on if you want to be perceived as a serious thinker rather than a knee jerk bigot.

Yes, the examples from the current thread.

Why do I need to explain all the finer points of reading comprehension?

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#139

Post by bradleyjg » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 1:10 AM UTC

dplgk wrote: post #94

chomp wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MIT allows for the sublicensing to a more restrictive license. I have no idea how this would play out in court, but it looks like this is allowed. Pretty scummy move though for people who don't agree with this maintainers politics, and very concerning for ANY company who does anything that the maintainers could potentially disagree with. I'd avoid this project now, or use an older MIT-only commit. EDIT: Thought about…

Is it politics when human rights are violated? I don't think it's "politics" to oppose children separated from their parents.

CBP and ICE aren’t the same organization (and that’s even before getting into the distinction between HSI and ERO).

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#140

Post by jancsika » Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 2:15 AM UTC

jsgo wrote: post #115

jancsika wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm honestly glad you are now aware of that fact. Now that we are both aware, let's talk about their license. Is it now a non-free license? How does it affect their current non-Palantir user base? Is it enforceable? Was it meant to be enforceable? Are there ways in which a license written by people who aren't themselves lawyers can come back to bite them? This entire digression goes away completely if they put the re…

part that gives me pause, even though I'm 100% okay with being against the current policy of separation: what next? Totally silly, but what if it comes out that some food company is engaging in behavior that is deemed immoral. Lerna then tacks that onto the next revision of itself. But I, myself, really like food company's product and don't feel the controversy is warranted. Then what? I understand the motivation wit…

My point is that the license is the absolute worst place to put anything-- including a protest-- because licensing issues are way outside the expertise of most programmers.

For example, if they put the same information in a comment in the code, then whatever flame war might ensue would at least be fully on the social implications of it. Nobody will worry about the comment accidentally getting interpreted improperly by various JS engines. Nobody will talk about how the big company they work for will not touch code that has certain comments because the comment department advised them those comments are radioactive. Troglodytes won't pop up to poorly recite what they think they read on the wall about comments and maximizing freedom.

All of that and more will happen when you write anything non-standard in a license for a FLOSS project. It's a dog-whistle to every programmer out there who has dreamed of pretending to be a lawyer.

I offer into evidence the ratio of ICE-related posts to licensing-desiderata-related posts in this thread.

If you've really got so much energy to waste that your thinking about writing your own custom license blurb, just go reverse-engineer a baseband OS or something.