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Lerna relicences to protest ICE

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Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The MIT license has no restriction on applying additional restrictions, without the permission of the contributors. For example, MIT licensed software can be used in proprietary software.

It's not a MIT issue, it's a copyright issue. They're distributing the original contributions under the new license without honouring the terms of the original license. The software isn't now MIT+additional terms, it's MIT and MIT+additional terms. Meaning they need to continue to honour the MIT license for all exisiting contributions, just the same way as we need to when we use MIT licensed software. Namely, printin…

I think this is wrong, because the original contributions are licensed under MIT.

So changing the license to MIT + Clauses is essentially a fork. Since the original work is licensed under MIT, licencing derivative work under a different license is permissible, no?

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#82

very unfortunate to have this in the license. I guess in the future, we will use our selective outrage, to decide which formulas / research work can be used and by whom. Jamie Build is welcome to establish charity organization to help, whoever he believes the victims are. Given current practice of economic prosecution of conservative voices, Technology folks who would choose voice their support for Trumps administrat…

I'm getting tired of bigots crying about censorship right around the point where they face consequences for being bigots.

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#83
post #54

It would be really funny if at least one of the following would happen: - the companies on the list would band together and fork lerna - one of the projects that lerna depends on would tell them that they are no longer welcome to use their code because they hold the opposite belief - the lerna community to implode because maybe not all the 169 contributors hold the same political position Mixing software with politic…

The idea that this is uniquely political in a way that open source licenses aren't is just laughable.

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#84

Regarless of your views on ICE, this doesn't punish those execs which choose to work with them. Normal devs now have to learn/use something else. This also goes against the principles of open source.

While I'm sympathetic to the argument that this won't actually accomplish much, protests always cause inconvenience for non-involved parties, that's kind of the point. A protest that doesn't cause disruption and get attention tends to get ignored.

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#85
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I can be any more explicit than my previous comment, but I'll try. You can't just grab a permissive license, like MIT, ignore it, and go, "Hey, this is GPL now." That's entirely incorrect. You cannot ever ignore the terms of a license, just because you want to use another license. You must under all circumstances, honour the terms of the license for which you were granted the right to reproduce someone-e…

> You can't just grab a permissive license, like MIT, ignore it, and go, "Hey, this is GPL now." Yes you can, that's sublicensing, which the MIT license allows. It's also why you can include MIT-licensed code in non-free applications. The MIT license does not forbid any of this. And you're not ignoring it when you say the whole work is now covered by the terms of the GPL as the text of the GPL says; you're actually e…

> Yes you can, that's sublicensing.

No, that's copyright infringement.

What you've just described is actually referred to as relicensing i.e. removing the old license, and replacing it, this is not the same as sublicensing. Without expressly having been given permission to do so, this is copyright infringement.

Sublicensing is when you, as a licensee, in accordance with your license, provide a license to another party. The MIT permits this as long as you adhere to the MIT license's conditions, namely:

  [...] subject to the following conditions:

  The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included
  in all copies or substantial portions of the Software.
The point is that based on this, as laid out in the MIT license, all sublicensees are bound by, at best, the exact same conditions that you're bound by. The MIT license allows you to place additional restrictions, but this is inherently a "conjunctive and" situation i.e. The software is MIT and GPL licensed, meaning the sublicensee is bound by the conditions of both licenses.

> You're right that you still have to display the MIT license

You've acknowledged my point here.

Not only do "they" need to display the MIT license, so do sub-licensees, and their sub-licensees, and so forth, in aeternum.

> but that's not really the point.

That's entirely the point.

As I've said before, this is being bound by the terms of the MIT license and the GPL, not simply the GPL.

With respect to Lerna, we have a near parallel situation. Lerna can take MIT licensed software from their contributors, and sublicense a derivative of this software with an attached MIT+additional terms license. However, Lerna must continue to to adhere to the conditions of the MIT license i.e. Display the MIT license in full. As in the GPL situation, the software is now bound by multiple licenses, not simply MIT+additional terms, but rather MIT and MIT+additional terms.

> Lerna is still displaying the original MIT license anyway.

I will concede this is a fair point, in the sense that their new license incorporates most the text of the original MIT license. Given the surrounding context whereby additional restrictions are added, and the fact that they're collectively represented as the one license, I don't know how that would play out in court.

Nonetheless, if we're being pedantic:

  - Copyright (c) 2015-2017 Sebastian McKenzie 
  + Copyright (c) 2015-present Lerna Contributors
They've actually changed the copyright notice, thus they're not meeting the terms of the MIT license that was granted by their contributors.

Granted, that's being super pedantic and I doubt that alone would be reasonable basis for any sensible court awarding restitution.

Nonetheless, my entire point is that the Lerna team have claimed in that Github issue that they've relicensed the project under MIT+additional terms. They can't do this, they can only sublicense contributions of contributors - the MIT does not allow relicensing.

They can absolutely relicense their own contributions; as the copyright holder they inherently have that right to do so. However, with respect to contributor's works, they can only sublicense, as contributors have expressly permitted this, as long as sublicensees also adhere to the conditions set forth in the MIT license. So the contributor's portions, and therefore Lerna as a whole, are at best MIT and MIT+additional terms, not simply the latter.

If you're suggesting that:

  MIT *and* MIT+additional terms == MIT+additional terms
Ignoring the aforementioned copyright notice change and concerns about contextual representation of the MIT license, then I'd say that's a fairly reasonable assertion. Thus, sublicensing contributions as MIT+additional terms would be essentially equivalent to relicensing as MIT+additional terms.

Nonetheless, as the MIT license makes no mention of relicensing, I would suggest that proclaiming you've relicensed is not particularly wise; which is precisely what the Lerna team are proclaiming (see their last comment before locking the issue). They have in fact sublicensed.

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#86

It's distressing how many people seem to be either fine with, or active apologists for child abuse so long as it's done to immigrants.

As someone who grew up on both sides of the border it's created a new weight in my gut and every situation is always awkward now. But I am lucky, I am a citizen. I can't even begin to try and understand the trauma these families go through...

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#87

very unfortunate to have this in the license. I guess in the future, we will use our selective outrage, to decide which formulas / research work can be used and by whom. Jamie Build is welcome to establish charity organization to help, whoever he believes the victims are. Given current practice of economic prosecution of conservative voices, Technology folks who would choose voice their support for Trumps administrat…

I'm getting tired of bigots crying about censorship right around the point where they face consequences for being bigots.

Sorry you are getting tired. I am sure this debate will continue.

Some would view that, not recognizing Jaime Demor, Brendan Eich as victims of blatant economic prosecution of free speech and political affiliation, -- is being, at least, tone-deaf.

I am sure, that US courts will end up testing , whether this type of organized economic prosecution of Free Speech and political affiliations, is legal or not. Sooner, rather than later.

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#88

Slightly off-topic, but: anyone know where I can find a solid debate / discussion on the political issues raised by illegal immigration in the U.S.? My own views lean pretty strongly towards one end of the spectrum, and I simply can't understand why people would hold the opposite views. So I suspect I'm missing something.

I don't know a good resource but I think it largely comes down to how you see someone who commits a crime or breaks a rule. People on the right tend to see everyone as capable of following all the rules. To break them is a clear choice which has consequences. People who break the law or rules suffer from a character flaw. If a lot of people are breaking the law or a rule then there is some moral breakdown in society…

That's a great articulation of one way to view the issue, thanks!

I'd love to hear from people across the political spectrum as to whether or not your model seems accurate w.r.t. their own personal views on the subject.

I.e., not whether or not they think your model accurately describes the people with whom they disagree on this topic. Just whether or not they feel it accurately captures their own view.

Re: Lerna relicences to protest ICE

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm getting tired of bigots crying about censorship right around the point where they face consequences for being bigots.

Sorry you are getting tired. I am sure this debate will continue. Some would view that, not recognizing Jaime Demor, Brendan Eich as victims of blatant economic prosecution of free speech and political affiliation, -- is being, at least, tone-deaf. I am sure, that US courts will end up testing , whether this type of organized economic prosecution of Free Speech and political affiliations, is legal or not. Sooner, rat…

And they will not find in these "victims" favor, because this is not and has never been a free speech issue.

Those that argue that this is a free speech issue are arguing in bad faith and need to knock it off.

None of these men were legally prosecuted for their speech, they faced personal consequences for their actions. That's not a free speech issue, it's a "words matter" issue. That I need to point out that people need to take personal responsibility for what they say is a sign of how far we've fallen.

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