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Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

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Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#71

Post by umvi »

mikestew wrote: post #65
umvi wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is just as true for a violation in the conservative direction as in the aggressive direction. I've been caught by surprise before when a conservative driver slammed on their brakes when the light turned yellow even though there was ample time for both of us to coast through the light. Instead, I nearly rear-ended them.

I've been caught by surprise before when I've been following too closely... There, FTFY. I tend to follow too closely, too, but let's call it what it is and not blame the driver in front of us.

Either way, a key to preventing accidents is being predictable. The vast majority of drivers coast through yellow lights if they are reasonably close to the line. Breaking this predictability by abruptly halting at yellow (while reasonably close to the intersection) is going to be a risk multiplier - regardless of if you are "blameless" for doing so.

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#72

Post by bryanlarsen »

vkjv wrote: post #41
jrockway wrote: post #16

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they like conservative driving. "I would have risked that left turn, so you should have too. The person with the green light would have slowed down to avoid an accident, probably, and I would have gotten to the next red light 10 seconds sooner!" You will also hear this when talking about less-capable drivers ("get off the road, grandma!") or less-capable vehicles ("I hate havi…

Every single time someone honks at me for this, I'm tempted to stay in place longer than necessary. Fortunately--most of the time--I think better of being this petty and passive aggressive.

They could be honking because there is something you don't see, like a little child about to run onto the road, a problem with your vehicle, et cetera. So stopping until you can figure out why they are honking really should be the correct response.

Should, but isn't, unfortunately.

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#73

Post by checkyoursudo »

jrockway wrote: post #16

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they like conservative driving. "I would have risked that left turn, so you should have too. The person with the green light would have slowed down to avoid an accident, probably, and I would have gotten to the next red light 10 seconds sooner!" You will also hear this when talking about less-capable drivers ("get off the road, grandma!") or less-capable vehicles ("I hate havi…

When I was younger, I used to get impatient but probably never or rarely angry.

At some point I decided that I really have no idea why any given person is driving slowly or seemingly over-cautiously or in whatever strange way. Maybe something is going wrong? Maybe out of their control?

I have since strived to be charitable and patient. I sometimes fail, but on the whole I find that I am much less stressed when driving now than when I was younger.

I just say, usually out loud to my little kids' extreme delight, "WTF ever, people be crazy."

I do still yell at people who are driving excessively fast to slow down. Also to my kids' delight. My preschooler says, "we should call the police," which makes me laugh everytime.

Except in Pittsburgh. I am always super super stressed when driving in and around Pittsburgh.

I also yell at cyclists who don't obey traffic laws (silently, in my head, at least).

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#74

Post by rizzom5000 »

mikestew wrote: post #65
umvi wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is just as true for a violation in the conservative direction as in the aggressive direction. I've been caught by surprise before when a conservative driver slammed on their brakes when the light turned yellow even though there was ample time for both of us to coast through the light. Instead, I nearly rear-ended them.

I've been caught by surprise before when I've been following too closely... There, FTFY. I tend to follow too closely, too, but let's call it what it is and not blame the driver in front of us.

I disagree, if OP was following too closely the collision would have happened. Instead OP had to take evasive action to avoid collision because driver in front did something unexpected.

I look forward to the day that self-driving cards are mandatory. Driving is one of the most excruciating things I endure in daily life and only because of the huge number of people on the roads exhibiting random and completely irrational behavior. If there is absolutely no rational reason to stop your car in the midst of moving traffic, then why do it?

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#75

Post by cgriswald »

kthejoker2 wrote: post #54
jstanley wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people are honking at you, are you sure you're being safe and not just being annoying ?

I find the vaaaast majority of honking is driven by impatience not any actual practical consideration (alerting others to your presence, trying to get someone's attention.) Honking to provoke someone into taking risks you don't have to incur the consequences of yourself is mild sociopathy.

> Honking to provoke someone into taking risks you don't have to incur the consequences of yourself is mild sociopathy.

I agree. The fact that the risk is theirs and that they are obviously not confident drivers is exactly why I don't honk. I neither want that on my conscience nor want to be secondary damage when they pull out at the wrong time and cars and debris go flying.

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#76

Post by bryanlarsen »

jellicle wrote: post #30
klodolph wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also wondering what part of this is due to them being programmed to follow the letter of the law, instead of driving like other drivers.

Has Google (or any other company) ever said "we are programming our cars to follow the letter of the law"? I don't believe so. This seems to be something that programmers and lazy reporters have inferred to be true, without evidence. For example, it is required in California to signal lane changes/turns for at least 100 feet before the maneuver. (Other states may have different requirements, so better hope your GPS i…

If little Sally runs out into the middle of the road and you cannot avoid her by slamming on the brakes, you were going too fast for conditions. You cannot rely on being able to swerve into the oncoming lane, it might be occupied.

If you can reasonably avoid Sally but don't, that's careless driving. You're avoiding a misdemeanor to commit a possible felony.

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#77

Post by bryanlarsen »

dawhizkid wrote: post #40

Do these cars ever go at the speed of traffic even if it's above the speed limit? Practically if everyone is driving 5-10mph above the speed limit then it actually seems more dangerous if the Waymo car is driving at the exact speed limit here?

No, they are programmed to speed when appropriate. They probably have a fairly conservative idea of appropriate, though.

https://venturebeat.com/2014/08/19/google-cars-are-designed-...

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#78

Post by mikestew »

umvi wrote: post #71
mikestew wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been caught by surprise before when I've been following too closely... There, FTFY. I tend to follow too closely, too, but let's call it what it is and not blame the driver in front of us.

Either way, a key to preventing accidents is being predictable. The vast majority of drivers coast through yellow lights if they are reasonably close to the line. Breaking this predictability by abruptly halting at yellow (while reasonably close to the intersection) is going to be a risk multiplier - regardless of if you are "blameless" for doing so.

Either way, a key to preventing accidents is being predictable.

The problem is, if I relied on other drivers to be predictable, I'd probably already be dead. I tell other motorcycle riders, "ask yourself what the stupidest thing that driver in front/next to/behind you can do. Now plan for that." It's not too often that plan needs to be executed, but it's handy when the time comes. (Anecdotally, I've found WA to be the hardest to plan for; man, they're a creative bunch.)

So, yes, be predictable; but expect the unexpected. As Red Green said, "we're all in this together."

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#79

Post by zamalek »

snowwrestler wrote: post #49
zamalek wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who attempts to follow the letter of the law, I experience quite a few incidents of aggressive driving. The complaints here are really just demonstrating how bad humans are at driving - the frustration probably arises due to the fact that they are unable to intimidate the driver in front of them with aggressive behavior. > One woman said that she almost hit one of the company's minivans because it suddenly…

Why do you attempt to follow the letter of the law? Not even traffic officers follow the letter of the law; it's rare to get pulled over for going 60mph in a 55mph zone, for example. Do you ever find yourself on a road getting passed by all the other cars? Isn't that annoying? Why not just speed up a few mph and join the herd? I'm honestly asking; I just do not get the appeal.

> Why do you attempt to follow the letter of the law?

Cars are objects that have an extreme amount of kinetic energy. The point isn't to avoid getting pulled over, the point is to avoid dying or killing.

> 60mph in a 55mph

Air resistance increases at a squared rate. The amount of fuel you use (and your emissions) is not linearly associated with your speed. So does your kinetic energy. Going at 25, 5 over is not the same as going at 55, 5 over.

> Do you ever find yourself on a road getting passed by all the other cars? Isn't that annoying?

All the time, but it's not annoying because I don't care about being in front of everyone - I have left for my destination with ample time to make my appointment. I'm on the road to reach a destination, not to win the race. I don't care if people cut in front of me, because I have chosen not to and give them the safe room to do so.

Driving aggressively is stressful, you [not specifically you] are fighting with everyone else on the road. You're going to risk your health in order to be directly ahead of me at a red traffic light two minutes later? I'll just pull to the right and give you room to pull in front of me. I try my best to get out of the way of aggressive driving; the further those drivers are away from me, the better.

In those two minutes where you've [again, generalized "you"] been racing everyone else on the road, I've probably let someone in front of me - saving them minutes and costing me seconds (before the next traffic light equalization). I feel good about myself, you are in the throws of fight or flight.

The only appeal of courteous driving is that there is less than an appeal to aggressive driving. The only way to win is not to play.

Re: Locals reportedly frustrated with Waymo's self-driving cars

#80

Post by vorpalhex »

tejtm wrote: post #45
vorpalhex wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a real problem that I'm curious to see how Alphabet solves. In many areas of the country, the posted speed limit is often much lower than the realistic speed cars are going - following the letter of the law becomes unsafe behavior when you're going 15mph slower than everyone else. Of course, the answer here is probably the most boring: following the letter of the law ensures the least liability.

Perhaps Alphabet could buy billboards with driving law writ large or direct G to serve recaptchas requiring answerers to driver safety quizzes

https://www.planetizen.com/news/2017/11/95695-raising-speed-...
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