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Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

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581–590 of 728 posts

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#581
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"tolerance" swings both ways. Unless you choose to be intolerant. The majority of people who spout tolerance and acceptance at me are the least tolerant and acceptant of other beliefs.

> "tolerance" swings both ways. It doesn't, which is the "paradox of tolerance".[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

It does. Popper's answer to the paradox of tolerance works perfectly well regardless of which side of the political spectrum you're on:

"I'm righteously intolerant of the political right's intolerance of my beliefs."

"Oh yeah? Well, I'm righteously intolerant of the political left's intolerance of my beliefs."

In the end, invoking the paradox is just a convenient fig leaf for those who want to justify their bad behavior.

(And that's completely ignoring the fact that Popper's answer to his paradox is not the only one, as the Wikipedia article itself mentions.)

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#582
post #84

Worked across very liberal and very conservative places in tech. Neither is pleasant. In my opinion, the American self-image and self-worth largely characterized by subscription to a political ideology is the problem. What bothers me is not dress codes,free meals,open offices,etc... But the very idea that a company would display or promote politics in the work place. Why are companies promoting "pride",donating to tr…

> Why are companies ... telling workers to attend 'lgbt tolerance' meetings

Often, companies requires employees to undertake training in this area because the company is legally required to provide a workplace that is free from anti-LGBT discrimination (likewise, anti-racism, sexual harassment, etc)

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#583
post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general I agree with you, but neither pride nor tolerance training is political. Pride is like St. Paddy's Day or Chinese New Year: it's neither left or right. Tolerance training isn't political either. If an employer wants their employees to be comfortable at work, it's within their right to train employees to be tolerant of each other. It has nothing to do with politics. It's strange how gay people just being ga…

I will not respect or tolerate a person because they are gay. I will respect and/or tolerate them because they are human and a colleague. Tolerance training is political because the employer wants employess of a certain belief,affiliation or private association to feel welcome. For example,tolerance training for vegetarians would also be political. Pride also is supporting a political movement much like supporting 'a…

> I will not respect or tolerate a person because they are gay. I will respect and/or tolerate them because they are human and a colleague.

Good for you! The problem is that some people don't respect or tolerate a person because that person is gay. That's a thing that exists.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#584
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? We're all generally well-paid (even with respect to the value we create). But this whole message board is practically dedicated to the ways in which our industry pisses us off, from confiscatory IP clauses to open offices to death march projects. Who's to say labor can't organize simply for a better shop to work in? That's not unprecedented.

FB is monopoly at this point. Very few people there are irreplaceable. If this was was a startup you might have more leverage. Mr. Amerige probably doesn't have much here. Mr. Amerige is probably making good money. If he gets fired good luck trying to get another job. Companies hate controversy. Trump won because of Facebook. I don't know why these guys are complaining.

> Very few people there are irreplaceable

Ah, but they're not replaceble fast enough. It's hard to get a scab up to speed quick enough. It could take weeks before someone's able to come in at short notice and replace a sysadmin. Hence the employees could take the website down for an hour or so...

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#585

This has become a big problem. Look at WeWork. That company banned employees from expensing meals that happened to have non-fish meat. I can't think of something more personal than what people choose to eat. They are imposing their beliefs about diet on employees. It's full blown coercion. Some companies are taking the activism a bit too far.

Huh, I hadn't heard about that. Did they face any significant backlash legal or otherwise? I suppose non-pescatarians aren't a protected class so there's no legal argument. I like this example because it's fairly odd/unique enough to be jarring. I don't think companies need to act compleatly apolically, but it is a fine line to walk. I find it hard to really generalize my own feelings on the issue without simply choo…

> I suppose non-pescatarians aren't a protected class so there's no legal argument.

Correct. But sometimes these things can bump into protected classes. Like if someone has a medical disability that would require them to eat enough of a certain thing. You can't punish them then

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#586
post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This line of reasoning is implicitely making the false equalence of "everyone who isn't with me is, by default, against me". Going down this route, you are forcing me to take a position on issues I don't nearly feel having sufficient amount of data, or nuance; nor motivated to acquire them, because giving a shit is a rapidly depletable resource , and I have my own life, and my own stuff to take care of. Please do not…

Rather than speaking in generalities, can you specify particular political positions that you feel have been forced upon you?

I'm not the one you're asking, but...

I'm a conservative Christian. I believe that homosexuality is a sin. The one co-worker who I knew was gay, I told him that straight out. I also continued to work with him, and kept him as my friend. (Lots of my friends are sinners. For that matter, so am I.) I continued to be someone he felt he could confide in - he'd come talk to me when he needed to gripe, because he knew he could tell me sensitive stuff and I wouldn't burn him with it.

Now here comes company diversity training. It includes LGBTQ stuff. If it says "treat people professionally; whether they are LGBTQ or not is not something that affects how you treat people in the office", well, I'm fine with that. It's what I do anyway.

But if the diversity training moves on to "you should have a positive view of gay marriage" or some such, well, that's forcing a political position on me.

Note well: I have never experienced that. But I think I've heard of such things happening (and no, I can't document even hearing it).

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#587

The manifesto states "There’s only going to be one core rule in the group, and it’s that if you attack a person’s character, rather than their ideas, you will be banned." People whose ideas are on the wrong side of ethical will often say this sort of thing- as though the two things, a person's character and their ideas, are somehow not connected. I'm not sure where they get the idea that the ideas they support indica…

> as though the two things, a person's character and their ideas, are somehow not connected.

I somewhat agree with you that the character of a person can be inferred by the ideals they claim to hold. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that, given the context of the worldview held by the speaker, you can infer positions that person might take on other issues of the day.

Understanding the worldview of the speaker is incredibly important when making character calls. I've found that people will attempt to reveal their character to you in subtle ways, often in an attempt to see what positions you claim to hold in response. The ideals they claim to hold often mean very different things for their character depending on their worldview.

Example: I've found that when interacting with people who have grown up in black culture, when they make a statement against the ownership of guns, they're actually signaling to you that they don't believe in the unjust use of violence. In white culture, revealing a pro-gun stance says more about their belief in the role of the individual in relation to the government. Confusing one for the other will result in a very unproductive conversation.

People tend to interpret other's words outside of the context of the speaker's actual worldview. My understanding is that this is the problem that 'attacking the person's ideas, rather than their character' tries to solve.

Full disclaimer, I grew up in a very conservative circle(The kind that didn't vote for, and generally has a strong distaste for Trump), and as a result I have a very good understanding for how their ideas tend to be generated. I can say with confidence that many of these people have outstanding moral character, but would also be condemned by those in more liberal circles.(Granted, the conservatives I know are absolutely guilty of the reverse)

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only extremists on the left would disagree that sex differences are partially/fully biological (depending on how you're defining biological and sex). Unfortunately, there were enough “extremists” to get both Larry Summers and James Damore fired.

I'm unfamiliar with Larry Summers, but Damore wasn't just claiming that there were biological differences between the sexes. He was also claiming that those biological differences made women less suited to work in technology and leadership related positions.

Having read Damore’s memo, that’s categorically false, but of course he was smeared as having said that.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#589
post #170
post #84

Worked across very liberal and very conservative places in tech. Neither is pleasant. In my opinion, the American self-image and self-worth largely characterized by subscription to a political ideology is the problem. What bothers me is not dress codes,free meals,open offices,etc... But the very idea that a company would display or promote politics in the work place. Why are companies promoting "pride",donating to tr…

I don't mean any offense, but it has been my experience that people who can afford to "put politics aside", so to speak, are people from demographics who didn't have politics "happen" to them. When you are gay or trans and a significant chunk of people find your mere existence revolting, when you are black and a significant chunk of people believe you are innately less intelligent and more prone to violence, when you…

Having politics ‘happen’ to you is exactly the reason to put advocacy aside at work. Because hopefully it helps you empathize with people who have had ‘different’ politics ‘happen’ to them.

E.g. There’s a lot of Asian Americans from impoverished immigrant backgrounds who experience reverse affirmative action at American universities. They may still vote liberal, but for very different reasons as people pursuing social justice.

The issues are hardly black and white, and a workplace environment where people are forced to pick sides is inherently unhealthy, not to mention anything but diverse.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only Nixon could go to China. Sometimes in America you see the strangest political bedfellows.

Yes. Another example is Clinton and welfare reform. Politics is weird that way.

Same thing with Reagan and Russia. But I think it's perfectly understandable. If Team Red is for X and Team Blue is against X, then it takes someone with street cred on Team Blue to make X happen, because they're the only one who can get Team Blue to stop the kamikaze opposition to X.
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