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Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

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Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're completely ignoring the subtext from the All Lives Matter folks. Saying "all lives matter" in response to "black lives matter" implies that the BLM folks are saying that only black lives matter, which they are not saying. It also implies that all races in america face similar struggles, which is also not totally true.

It seems you don't actually object to "all lives matter" - just the messages you're injecting in your interpretation. Nothing about "all lives matter" says that all races suffer equally. Nothing about it says that "black lives matter" is denying the worth of non-black lives. Appeals to judge based on subtext is often an excuse to construct a strawman. A good analogy is criticism of "listen and believe". Many of it's…

> Appeals to judge based on subtext is often an excuse to construct a strawman.

I disagree. Subtext and context are immensely important when judging a message like "all lives matter". Judging it based solely on the literal meaning is the strawman.

> Nothing about "all lives matter" says that all races suffer equally. Nothing about it says that "black lives matter" is denying the worth of non-black lives.

"All Lives Matter" came about as a response specifically to "Black Lives Matter". What other possible reason could you have for saying "All Lives Matter" in response to "Black Lives Matter" if you don't think "Black Lives Matter" denies the worth of non-black lives?

I don't understand why you're so set on interpreting both "Black Lives Matter" and "All Lives Matter" as if they only meant what they literally said.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you asked if there was any evidence and then when evidence was given you dismissed it. do you know what the word "any" means? also this is argument in bad faith (asking for evidence and then discounting validity).

It's bad faith to ask for evidence, then when provided with bad evidence, to say that it's bad? I've read a good amount of the literature on this subject, and haven't found any compelling evidence that diversity training does anything but shield companies from lawsuits to some extent.

>haven't found any compelling evidence

you really don't see how this is circular? how do you feel about this paraphrasing of climate change denial?

"I've read a good amount of the literature on this subject, and haven't found any compelling evidence that climate change is an anthropogenically driven process."

or this one of heliocentrism

"I've read a good amount of the literature on this subject, and haven't found any compelling evidence that the sun is at the center of the solar system."

or this one of

"I've read a good amount of the literature on this subject, and haven't found any compelling evidence that the earth is round."

you get my point? "compelling" is personal.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I do agree with your stated premise, I disagree with the notion that agreeing with the premise forces me to choose between McCarthy and Stalin. My counter point is this: McCarthy started a witch hunt that targeted nonmurdous views as well. It's my impression that people advocating socialist policies (or any policy not strictly capitalist) were also targeted. I feel I can object to this, while also objecting to…

> My counter point is this: McCarthy started a witch hunt that targeted nonmurdous views as well. Well, maybe. It turns out that the much-condemned “Hollywood blacklist” (which was not government action, just the act of private businesses!) only listed card-carrying members of the Communist Party USA, which was directly bankrolled from Moscow. Which makes those screenwriters far, far, far worse than, say, Alex Jones…

> Which makes those screenwriters far, far, far worse than, say, Alex Jones or James Damore, to name two recent victims of the current left-wing “witch hunt”.

I'm honestly surprised to see Jones and Damore mentioned in the same sentence. Jones deliberately spreads misinformation and personally response for directing a lot of hatred and harassment towards innocent people. Damore just published some unpopular (and in my opinion, harmful) views. I lean far left, and even I think that situation was mishandled.

> It turns out that the much-condemned “Hollywood blacklist” (which was not government action, just the act of private businesses!) only listed card-carrying members of the Communist Party USA

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_blacklist: Scholar Thomas Doherty describes how the HUAC hearings swept onto the blacklist those who had never even been particularly active politically, let alone suspected of being Communists: "On March 21, 1951, the name of the actor Lionel Stander was uttered by the actor Larry Parks during testimony before HUAC. "Do you know Lionel Stander?" committee counsel Frank S. Tavenner inquired. Parks replied he knew the man, but had no knowledge of his political affiliations. No more was said about Stander either by Parks or the committee – no accusation, no insinuation. Yet Stander's phone stopped ringing. Prior to Parks's testimony, Stander had worked on ten television shows in the previous 100 days. Afterwards, nothing."

> And, sadly, the crypto-fascist parties like BNP and FN and AfD are probably even more powerful than they would be if you just let them be honest about being fascists.

This is speculation. I'm aware that these groups will continue rebranding and resurfacing, but I don't think a passive approach is effective here. I think a perfect example of this is the Unite the Right rally 1 year ago, vs the reunion this past year. After the events a year ago, many white supremacists were doxxed, shamed, and fired. This year, no one came out to the reunion. If the rally a year ago was a success, do you think that would be the case? I think its reasonable to expect that more people would come out for the event, embolden by previous successes. I know that all the people involved in the rally last year are still white supremacists. My concern is them indoctrinating more members and growing in power. And I think passively letting them have a platform enables them to reach more people, embolden more people, and generally grow in strength.

> The marginal risk of Stalinism that is incurred by not outlawing CPUSA is much smaller than the marginal risk of totalitarianism inherent in ever allowing or normalizing the censorship of any political ideology. And honestly, neo-Nazis are an even bigger joke.

Sure, they may be a joke now. But they are less of a joke now than the were 10 years ago. They have a larger microphone, and while I can't speak for enrollment numbers, the members they have are more active and more visible. They have someone in office that they view as "their guy". By letting them have their platform, we risk letting them grow more. And that is not a marginal risk to me. For me, the marginal risk is that we will ban a non-murderous ideology. I see that both less likely, and safer for me personally, than the alternative.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right thing to do is not letting any one special cause dominate. My guess is that you arent tolerant of everyone either. Gays are humans they have human rights not gay rights its this idea thats gays are somehow more worthy of our support than say a conservative at a liberal workplace thats the crux of the problem. I dont care what people are, who they sleep with, what they believe, as long as i am not asked to o…

1. No one's saying that companies ought to only advocate for gay rights and leave behind every other issue. 2. I am tolerant towards everyone. It's actually not that difficult. 3. You seem to be a little confused on what gay rights are. Here's a summary: Gay people want to be treated fairly. We want our partner/spouse to be treated equally. We want our children to be treated equally. We want to not be fired for being…

1. No but you will have to prioritize which is exactly what is happening right now. That's a problem.

2. I agree so why question the Parents motives?

3. Not confused at all. Those are not gay rights they are human rights. You can replace the word gay with more or less anything and you will have the same. (Try read headed, try white, try black, try Swedish, try freckled, try fat). If you are a human you should have those rights no matter what you are and what you look like and what you believe.

4. The right thing to do is to be in favor of human rights. I see no reason why I should prioritize one thing over another. That's the very discrimination you seem to be advocating against.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that a bunch of highly paid conservative software developers would unionize and get the NLRB involved is rich.

Who says that these software engineers have to be necessarily "conservative"? I'll be perfectly frank. I'm a liberal. I've voted Democratic as long as I've had the right to vote. But I look at what's happening to politics the West Coast with a mixture of disgust and horror. People are losing their jobs for saying the wrong things, donating to the wrong causes, or because they've offended the wrong people. And far fro…

People are losing their jobs for saying the wrong things, donating to the wrong causes, or because they've offended the wrong people.

They aren't. At least, not any more than previously when they mostly also weren't.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#576
post #84

Worked across very liberal and very conservative places in tech. Neither is pleasant. In my opinion, the American self-image and self-worth largely characterized by subscription to a political ideology is the problem. What bothers me is not dress codes,free meals,open offices,etc... But the very idea that a company would display or promote politics in the work place. Why are companies promoting "pride",donating to tr…

If, as seems to be increasingly the case these days, someone's sincerely held belief is that some particular group of people should be marginalized, punished, deported, left to abusers, or even killed... is that all simply “politics”?

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say I work for WeWork and travel for work. I have a limited palate and like almost nothing that could be considered vegetarian and even less that would be vegan. I am now required to pay out of pocket for all my meals, when normally I could choose to eat at home, which is not possible thanks to my job requiring me to travel. Depending on the area I'm travelling to this could be a large expense that under normal condi…

If you are a picky eater and choosing between starving or paying for your own meal I think it's a safe bet which you would choose. Try and flip your example around - say you were vegan and had to travel for work to a small town without any vegan options. Would you expect that your company would ship you food to fill the gap or would you just buy some groceries yourself and figure it out?

The "flipped" situation isn't the same, but just like in my example no I wouldn't starve, I'd find a way since I'm an adult capable of providing for myself.

That doesn't mean it is a nice thing to do to your employees. "You won't starve" isn't an excuse for the company's bad behavior.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's bad faith to ask for evidence, then when provided with bad evidence, to say that it's bad? I've read a good amount of the literature on this subject, and haven't found any compelling evidence that diversity training does anything but shield companies from lawsuits to some extent.

>haven't found any compelling evidence you really don't see how this is circular? how do you feel about this paraphrasing of climate change denial? "I've read a good amount of the literature on this subject, and haven't found any compelling evidence that climate change is an anthropogenically driven process." or this one of heliocentrism "I've read a good amount of the literature on this subject, and haven't found an…

You're comparing apples and oranges. What we know about our ball earth and heliocentrism are as close to solved science as it gets. I don't know much about climate change theory, but for the purposes of this conversation let's just say it's less settled than heliocentrism (we know and can predict patterns of the Earth's movement around the sun into the far future with great accuracy, but there is no such accuracy with prediction of climate change).

But you compare those to diversity training efficacy, which has no empirical evidence, and the controlled studies examining effects have conflicting results. This is just not an honest comparison at all. I dismissed your study because it literally doesn't tell me anything about the real world, not because I hand-waive anything that I don't agree with.

Would you change any of your own life habits based on how 100 college kids subjectively reported on their feelings? It's ridiculous to compare the amount of information that kind of study tells us to the astounding accuracy of how our heliocentric model of the solar system can and has predicted where and when solar eclipses will happen down to the minute.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#579
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see a possibility where manfredo's perspective is genuinely naive of context surrounding of his first three bullet points, and may not be acting in bad faith - and I can see a possibility where brainkim's real feelings aren't as hard-line as the shortened, perhaps understandably heated version. To call these comments "inquisition level", and potentially ignorant of the catastrophic history of suppressing dissen…

Regarding support of Trump, Facebook indeed had an overt internal tone of enmity toward Trump, to the point that admitting to having voted for Trump would have been a frightening prospect in most circles. (I can't speak to the specifics of Palmer Luckey's foibles, only to the general tone regarding Trump.) Regarding "All Lives Matter", there was indeed inquisition-level blowback. I vacillated between abhorrence, angu…

Yes, even here on HN, in the fall of 2016 you'd recive massive downvotes for not hating enough on conservatives.

I ended up stating on most of my posts that I didn't like Trump and didn't want him to win but

- just tried to come up with an explanation for why so many others voted for him

- or tried to point out that the rules that allowed him to win had allowed democrats to win before

- etc

I still received loads of downvotes (I'd see my points rising and then falling sharply, seemingly when some part of the word woke up.)

All in all I came out positive wrt useless points but I still wondered about it.

And BTW: I still really don't like that man.

Re: Some Facebook Employees Unite to Challenge Its ‘Intolerant’ Liberal Culture

#580
post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respecting personal privacy and honoring individual's trust is hardly a liberal policy plank. For better or worse, the platform is predicated on the state generally knowing better than the individual on social policy.

Not at all. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

I'm aware of classical liberals, but minus some minor differences the contemporary term for them is "libertarian"; in my experience the only people who use the term 'classical liberal' are libertarians seeking to distance themselves from their own cohort.
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